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Using toys/dolls as secondary references???

 
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LeiaAurora ()
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 21, 2018 1:22 am    Post subject: Using toys/dolls as secondary references??? Reply with quote

So question for the judges and the LMO. Can we use dolls/action figures etc as secondary references if we are unable to get a full front/full back from a film/cartoon/comic etc?

I was discussing the FoD Pilot Padme with another member and lamented that there wasn’t a full shot from the cartoon to use as a reference. She brought up the fact that there is a doll that shows the full costume.

Would this be an acceptable reference as long as it is accompanied by what is shown in the cartoon or is this not something we should be using?

Please see reference below.


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Ritin Kornas ()
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 21, 2018 1:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It seems to me that this costume is just AOTC padmé pilot, with 2 modifications.
http://newsite.rebellegion.com/padme-amidala-naboo-fighter-pilot-episode-ii-attack-of-the-clones/

And that the doll is actually an AOTC doll reused and not Force of Destiny, despite the title and packaging. Why do I say that, because the helmet of the doll is clearly the one she wears in AOTC and not the one from FOD.

The changes you can see between the FOD clip and the AOTC version are helmet, and gloves. She doesn't wear any in FOD.

The helmet can be seen from side in the clip (see here to find it https://www.facebook.com/StarWars/videos/1679960065388921/ ) and as such, it clearly appear to be an standard TPM naboo pilot helmet.
[img]https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/starwars/images/0/0a/Bravo_5.png/revision/latest?cb=20131112165220[/img]

More pics of the doll for the LCJ team



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rab96 ()
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 21, 2018 5:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ritin,

I contest that it is just reused. Padmé does in fact wear gloves in the FoD short.

[img]PadmeStarfighterStunt by Becca, on Flickr[/img]

[img]Screen Shot 2018-01-21 at 10.04.36 AM by Becca, on Flickr[/img]

[img]Screen Shot 2018-01-21 at 10.04.00 AM by Becca, on Flickr[/img]

As these photos show, her hands are definitely not the color of her skin tone. So I believe she is wearing gloves.

Another giveaway to it being an FoD doll and not just a reused version of Ep2 Action Figure would be the boots.

Ep2 Action Figure

[img]Padme Pilot Action Figure by Becca, on Flickr[/img]

FoD Doll

[img]Padme Pilot FOD Doll by Becca, on Flickr[/img]

There are clear differences in the boots, one has the silver/metal looking buckles atop her feet unlike in the movie and action figure, where they are a piece of leather.

Actual Ep2 Costume Photo

[img]PadmePilot Actual Costume by Becca, on Flickr[/img]

I am also the other member she was mentioning looking into this costume.
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Ritin Kornas ()
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 22, 2018 12:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Good catch for the gloves ! The brown is just so clear (on both the video and the figures) I mistook it for the skin Wink

But don't get me wrong for the reuse. As far as I know this line of dolls don't have ep2 padmé anyway, the reuse was more in the sense they might have prepare a doll for ep2 but rebranded here last minute as FOD, because you must recognize it, the helmet is wrong for FOD but exactly the one of ep2.

Regarding the boots, they are the same model, you have the same "flaps" on the side of the tibias. The silver plate is the same than the leather one, just a different color Wink
So, nothing from the doll is specific except colors. That's why I say it's a reuse Very Happy

In the end, that could even play in your favor I would say, as all the elements can be clearly identified (with potential color change) to those of ep2 except the helmet which is regular naboo pilot ep1, it means you can get 360 of every elements into play. Wink

Personally I would love to see this validated, specially But I'm not a judge or LMO. Also, could be an easy made standard as we would need only to copy paste the ep2 standard, and naboo pilot standard for the helmet.
The best being to merge the two standards the same way than endor leia and briefing leia, or clone wars and ep3 mon mothma Smile given the small differences.

PS : I'm staying curious about the hairstyle.


edit : oh and I encourage you to do them Smile would love to see them !
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 22, 2018 5:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Right now the LMO team is putting a hold on approving the Forces of Destiny costumes. A lot of them are simplified versions of the costumes we see in the movie. On top of that the dolls and the cartoon versions do not match and the doll versions actually have more detail than the cartoon versions. We are attempting to determine the best way to proceed with these costumes, if at all.
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LeiaAurora ()
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 23, 2018 12:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I can understand not using a doll as those can change and not be a match to what is seen on screen. However, if we have a full front/back/left/right from the cartoon, that should still work, correct?
Being a somewhat new member, I’m not sure how the standards were written for cartoon costume from “Clone Wars” or “Rebels”. Is it the same as a film/television costume or are other things taken in to account?
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rab96 ()
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 23, 2018 12:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's understood that if we don't have full shots of a 360 of the character that it can't be approved, which I can see why this Pilot suit couldn't be.

But back to "simplified movie versions" of the costumes, the Clone Wars tv series uses these a lot, i.e. Padmé's Handmaiden Battle Gown from E1, Anakin and Obi-Wan's jedi wear towards the end of the series. Also in Rebels the TKs, TBs, etc are also simplified and correct me if I am wrong, are those not accepted in the 501st? And it is to my knowledge that the Clones in the 501st can only be animated now and not the realistic ones?

I am also a new member so I am not familiar with how the standards were written and/or new standards can be written.
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 23, 2018 12:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

LeiaAurora wrote:
I can understand not using a doll as those can change and not be a match to what is seen on screen. However, if we have a full front/back/left/right from the cartoon, that should still work, correct?
Being a somewhat new member, I’m not sure how the standards were written for cartoon costume from “Clone Wars” or “Rebels”. Is it the same as a film/television costume or are other things taken in to account?



What Blair means is that Almost all the Forces of Destiny Costumes are just simple versions of already approved costumes..



Because Rebels is completely different, new characters and new people




or Clone Wars

which includes same characters but in different costumes.

Clone wars anakin for example has very very different clothing







Where as you have most of these forces of Destiny costumes that look like the same costume we already have approved.








For example the anakin on the right in this above image is just a simplified version of whats already in the film. No ones submitted as it cause its the same costume as seen in the movie



Anakin in Ep3



So as you can see its just the same costume as shown in clone wars. Smile Its just a simple version of the costume from ep3.

Where as his earlier outfit

This one:



Is a new costume. ^^^


Hope this helps!
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Ritin Kornas ()
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 23, 2018 11:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

So given your arguments, I got 3 questions :

In what does a The Clone Wars clone trooper is not a simplified/stylized ep2 clone trooper ?

In what is an Rebel Captain from Star Wars Miniatures, not a Captain Antilles with slight color variations that we could input to the paint ?

In what is an ARC trooper from Clone Wars (miniseries) not a simplified/stylized version of the comics arc troopers (which is I guess the base for the "realistic" version of it?

Very Happy
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 23, 2018 2:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ritin Kornas wrote:
So given your arguments, I got 3 questions :

In what does a The Clone Wars clone trooper is not a simplified/stylized ep2 clone trooper ?

In what is an Rebel Captain from Star Wars Miniatures, not a Captain Antilles with slight color variations that we could input to the paint ?

In what is an ARC trooper from Clone Wars (miniseries) not a simplified/stylized version of the comics arc troopers (which is I guess the base for the "realistic" version of it?

Very Happy


I wish I could help with any of those. I am not a tk person in any way shape or form...

The only thing I can really say right off the bat that I can see is that the hard parts look super stylized?

We can't stylize cloth. When you break down these costumes and undetail them they look like cheap costumes where as the armor still looks quality and unique. Take rebels Vader for example the armor is essentially the same but the head shape is super stylized. The entire suit is stylized. We can't stylize our faces to look like cartoons unlike these sets of armor. Maybe someone else can help with this answer but yeah I'm not the right person to ask this to. I'm great with cloth, bad with armor. I'm so Sorry. :/
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Lora Skywalker ()
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 23, 2018 8:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

As I see it, the problem with the dolls are that they don't exactly match the FoD references. As pointed out by Thibaut the helmet is completely different. The collar height also chances. I'm sure there's other things, but I haven't studied it in detail. So that would prevent the dolls from being used as secondary references.
If you have a highly detailed figurine of a costume, and it's clear that the details match what can be seen in the primary references, then yes, that could be used as a secondary reference. That have been done before, but it have to match up. Otherwise it will end up a mess.

And I think Dawn (despite saying she doesn't know hard parts) hits the nail on the head; the armor can be stylized, but fabric can't. So you'd need proof that it's a new and different version of the costume and not just a simplified one, since we can't do that stylized style with fabric and ourselves. Would be cool if we could, but not physically possible.

I guess in the end it will most likely come down to what are new versions of the character's costumes and what is just simplified versions of the existing costumes.
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