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Kaydel/generic officers from TLJ costume standard discussion
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PondLife81 (Christine Evans)
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 05, 2018 2:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

tenebris wrote:


With the back belt, in all honesty like I said before it may just be hidden by the main belt? But it is an easy fix with a bagged out strip and a quick unpick.


There is no need for the belt. I am going through the above images and see nothing other than this offered as a reference:

How can this be accepted as a source!?! The people making this costume deserve that answer. I rewatch TLJ last night there were no back belts, an intend to look once again at TFA (this should be unnecessary seeing as this costume isn't from that movie) today where, again, I saw no diffnative proof of a back strap on/under or near the belt.

I have supplied more proof that this shouldn't be used, than proof that it should be included. This needs to be addressed.

Again the video source that this was taken from. A booth at NYCC.
https://youtu.be/lNjwsz8bLLI


Last edited by PondLife81 (Christine Evans) on Sun Jan 07, 2018 11:36 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 05, 2018 3:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You mis-understand me, I meant if we did find further refs for a belt then retrospectively it would be a quick fix. Ie you would just put it into the princess seams. You wouldn't have to make it all again or anything.

I don't actually feel anything either way about it other than its a bit odd, they made just one like that?
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PondLife81 (Christine Evans)
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 05, 2018 4:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

...

Last edited by PondLife81 (Christine Evans) on Sun Jan 07, 2018 11:38 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Benae Quee (Kristin Sirota)
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 05, 2018 4:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If Disney made those costumes for their interactive experience at NYCC, then it would make sense that they would include the buckle to fit whatever actor they hired. I'm sure they kept it in a range for body size, but a quick pull of that, and it will fit whomever played the part best. I've done extras work and have seen what they do to make costumes fit the actor in a pinch. I was sewn into a 17th century set of stays, because I was too skinny for the set they had on hand. Same went with the skirt. I didn't fit the costume best, but I fit the acting criteria, so I was hired and sewn into a costume.

Quote:
Its that we are supposed to be screen accurate to within the best of our ability and refs.

Quote:
Its not about being right, its about does it look like the reference pictures( as much as possible).


Which is it? What we see can on screen or perfect screen accuracy? If MULTIPLE people are saying they are not seeing something on screen, we can assume it is not there and it is not a requirement. If you cannot see it, why even bother wasting time and money putting it there? Why make people go back and retroactively add it? We are basing all of this off a costume photo that is NOT from the movie, but from an interactive experience at a convention. Disney is known for their stuff not being screen accurate, and made to fit the multiple actors that will wear it. They want a costume that resembles what people have seen on screen and to capture "the magic". We used to be like that too, now it's come down to debating details that no one even notices unless they are actively looking for them.

I got a message from a random friend on FB saying that they loved the movie and loved my costume and that it looked perfect to them. This is someone who is not a costumer and has limited knowledge of the SW universe. To them, my costume looked like what they saw on screen and was "perfect". They loved it so much that they felt the need to PM me about it. I'd say I succeeded in my goal of capturing what I was seeing in the reference material at the time I made my costume. I used the materials I did, because that was what my eye saw, based on the few photos we had. You cannot tell I used corduroy until you get closer to it. I wore this to TWO events and was called Connix multiple times by the fans in attendance and they knew exactly who I was.

In the end, we are here to represent what people see on screen, not be elitist and demand that barely (or non) visible details be on a costume. I'm pretty sure that the make-believe resistance would not fall apart if those buckles were not on the jackets. I'm sure that by having a RL member at an event without that buckle, will ruin it for everyone and children will scream and cry because their favorite character is not 100% screen accurate, and the entire RL will crumble at our feet.
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 05, 2018 6:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

but you can see the detail, if you look at the refs? The princess seams, the colour, ( the trousers with the knee pads there are lots of refs).....no where does it look like corduroy. We are accurate for lots of costumes why not this one? Our do you qualify for membership section says Ď do you Own a professional grade Star Wars was costume Ď

I give up. Iíve been referencing what Iím saying and trying to suggest elements for the costumes.....itís not my fault you all made a costume from one pic in vanity fair? Itís not about the back belt bit at all but about a lot of elements missing!

Iím not elitist Iím a pattern cutter, which is why I notice the detail.....
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PondLife81 (Christine Evans)
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 05, 2018 9:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

tenebris wrote:
but you can see the detail, if you look at the refs? The princess seams, the colour, ( the trousers with the knee pads there are lots of refs).....no where does it look like corduroy. We are accurate for lots of costumes why not this one?


In this we agree. Jumping the gun on these costumes is risky, and is the chance people take. If there is one thing that we all agree on is a CLEAR CONSISTENCY. This is needed across the board on CRL's and Judging.


I am including the Pics and Screencaps I have collected on this costume. One is a recent release from Disney, that shows differences in the colors of the Trousers.



We can all agree that all the costumes change color from scene to scene, but here we have multiple crew, including Connix seated in good lighting. This is much brighter than the image in the Visual Dictionary.
I am also including this Screen Cap from TFA that has two Generic Crew one has Green pants one has Brown. Yes this is TFA, it is just a reference to show were worn.



As for the belt and Side Back seams, I really wish we wouldn't call them Princess seams. This is a fitted jacket based on a suit coat not a bodice. The "Side Seam" in much more shaped and further forward, and the side back is further back, but not as far as a "Princess Seam"



I have collected images from TLJ and on from TFA:
Connix only clear back view. Her leather belt starts just below.



Back of a Generic person on the bridge:



Side and Back of Generic:



Very fuzzy image but helps the next image:



Generic from the back:



Here is a Generic TFA image as well:




Now that we have the movie, and 360' images maybe we should move forward and create a clear CRL.

--edited--1/7/18


Last edited by PondLife81 (Christine Evans) on Sun Jan 07, 2018 11:31 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Schph Gochi (Phyllis Schulte)
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 06, 2018 1:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

PondLife81 wrote:

Now that we have the movie, and 360' images maybe we should move forward and create a clear CRL.


This....

And, sadly, I have no access to people who worked on the set nor any "behind the scenes" information. I do understand that there are people who do have access and even photographs that they are, unfortunately, not able to share.


What has been approved before is past...
it comes down to future...

what will happen in the future is dependent on this conversation. At this time as I seem to be the only judge looking at this costume/character, I will approve no further costumes until this is settled.

Once an acceptable standard is agreed upon, anyone who had a costume denied is encouraged to re-submit said costume.

So, I truly would like the focus to be on what is and is not acceptable from here on...



Please note that this conversation is on the jacket version from "The Last Jedi" only. There is a separate discussion for "The Force Awakens".


Please make any pointed comments as for generic or for the Kaydel Connix face character only.


Please state your opinions in the usual style that we do our standards...pointing out your opinion on the construction details, fabric choices and colors etc of each piece of the costume.


The points are:

Jacket: need color, fabric choice, stitching details (both front and back and generic vs Connix) that will be deemed acceptable to all. Location and approximate size of Rebel Alliance insignia. Width of quilting lines.

Pants: need color range and fabric choices that are acceptable to all - this is TLJ only.

Boots: we agree that boots are knee high and dark brown with a zipper on the inside (between the legs) surface of the boots. Boots appear to have a rather pointed toe with a low heel. Should boots be allowed plain or have the detail of the top strap and Sam Browne stud (generic vs Connix)?

Belt and buckle: color and width of belt. Size range for buckle.

Rank badge: dimensions

Hair for Connix...it goes without saying that the hair STYLE must match the character, but should it be blond only....blond being natural blond, dyed blond or wig.
For generic, hair is not an issue.

Have I missed any points?
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PondLife81 (Christine Evans)
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 06, 2018 1:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I will be more than happy to assist with fleshing out this standard. I do it have my books with me at the moment so I don't have my detail references. Those small details are what is important to do this correctly the first time.
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 06, 2018 4:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Schph Gochi wrote:

The points are:

Jacket: need color, fabric choice, stitching details (both front and back and generic vs Connix) that will be deemed acceptable to all. Location and approximate size of Rebel Alliance insignia. Width of quilting lines.

Pants: need color range and fabric choices that are acceptable to all - this is TLJ only.

Boots: we agree that boots are knee high and dark brown with a zipper on the inside (between the legs) surface of the boots. Boots appear to have a rather pointed toe with a low heel. Should boots be allowed plain or have the detail of the top strap and Sam Browne stud (generic vs Connix)?

Belt and buckle: color and width of belt. Size range for buckle.

Rank badge: dimensions

Hair for Connix...it goes without saying that the hair STYLE must match the character, but should it be blond only....blond being natural blond, dyed blond or wig.
For generic, hair is not an issue.

Have I missed any points?


It might also be a good idea to include her holster and blaster as optional items.
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Iron Edge (Ian Cook)
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 06, 2018 8:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I can assure you all that we here in Sunrider have our fair share of costume approval issues. We get no special favors. I understand you are frustrated, however I would respectfully request you withdraw your accusations against my base. I take my role seriously and I am a stickler for fairness and following the charter. I take your implications personality. There's a better way to do this guys don't drag my base through the mud. Thank you.
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Benae Quee (Kristin Sirota)
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 07, 2018 4:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Iron Edge wrote:
I can assure you all that we here in Sunrider have our fair share of costume approval issues. We get no special favors. I understand you are frustrated, however I would respectfully request you withdraw your accusations against my base. I take my role seriously and I am a stickler for fairness and following the charter. I take your implications personality. There's a better way to do this guys don't drag my base through the mud. Thank you.


No one is accusing your entire base, they have done nothing wrong. What we're trying to figure out is why a costume that is almost identical to another, was accepted while another was denied. It so happens that the "expert" that was brought in is from your base and picked apart my costume for missing details. The approved costume is from your base, and should have been picked apart equally as much. We are concerned with the inconsistency in judging here, not the base itself or the approved member. When the approved costume and the "expert" are from the same base, it just looked bad from many viewpoints.

"We" being several concerned members, not just myself. My costume was discussed at lengths with the "expert", and I'm sure that was passed on to the judge as well, seeing as I got the email about approval only as generic and not face character as originally applied for. There could not have been that many requests for Connix in the short time that my costume was under debate and this one was approved. The information should have still been fresh in the judge's mind for the few others that came in. I know it would have been in mine, back when I was judge. Someone should have looked at the costume and gone "Hey, didn't we have others with similar issues?". Her costume looks great and no one would have even noticed if it was just admitted as a generic officer as well. We would have continued to trying to come up with a standard that we all could agree on based on official movie footage and photos.

I know a few members from your base, and have since 2004 or 2005, it's been a long time. They are great people and have been super hospitable to my husband and I whenever we found ourselves in CA. I apologize if it looked like an attack on your entire base, but it really was not meant as such. We're all just frustrated and trying to sort out how this happened.
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 07, 2018 5:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:

Hair for Connix...it goes without saying that the hair STYLE must match the character, but should it be blond only....blond being natural blond, dyed blond or wig.
For generic, hair is not an issue.


I don't think hair color should be a requirement. Holdo would be a costume where the color is required, it's extremely distinct and was obviously designed into her character's overall look.

From our Standards Pages:
Note: For face characters, all costumers should strive for a close resemblance to the character's hair shape and color, facial hair or lack thereof, as well as any body decorations the character may have, such as tattoos and piercings. For hair color, unless exact color is required by the standard, all natural hair colors are accepted.
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 07, 2018 10:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jacket: need color, fabric choice, stitching details (both front and back and generic vs Connix) that will be deemed acceptable to all. Location and approximate size of Rebel Alliance insignia. Width of quilting lines.

I think that connix and the generics are the same. I don't think we need to have a difference?

Jacket is quilted, aprox how many lines front, back, sleeves? Or are we going for distance between lines?

Mid cotton/cotton lawn muted brown/yellowy gold......does anyone here have the ability to do that pantone thing as that would be really helpful.


Front has no panels or darts, shoulder seams start further down the shoulder at a slight angle. Front opening with an off center front 2 inches? more?
length, top of the thigh? 1 third down the top of the leg?
stand collar how high?


back has princess seams/shaping panels from say halfway down the back of the armhole? that go down to the hem or are we stating there needs to be a waist seam and it stop there?

insignia:


connix: dark red/brown printed or slightly distressed rebel symbol on left side chest, We need to find a point of reference for its location ie...one third down the armhole etc (the insigina is approx double the height of the rank badge in height and 1 and a third times the width/or 8 quilting lines)

generics: darlk red/brown printed or slightly distressed rebel symbol left side chest or top of left sleeve.

Pants: need color range and fabric choices that are acceptable to all - this is TLJ only.

Generics: brown twill.

connix: brown twill or olive twill.

Its easy to get hold of in most countries and is cheap. the trousers detail should def be included too (ie sections and knee pads).


Boots: we agree that boots are knee high and dark brown with a zipper on the inside (between the legs) surface of the boots. Boots appear to have a rather pointed toe with a low heel. Should boots be allowed plain or have the detail of the top strap and Sam Browne stud (generic vs Connix)?


Generics: flat calf length mid brown boots/ with velcro top strap? They have a partial zip so could make them pull on or zip?

(they all seem to wear the po-zu ones, but they only start at a size 8/euro 42 so we need to think of a more generic description).

connix: I don't think they are overly pointed, If we are going to say bog standard mid/dark brown knee boots I think we should add the strap, you could even glue it on and a same browne is really easy to source.


Belt and buckle: color and width of belt. Size range for buckle.


Generics: mid brown/dark brown/saddle tan, silver rectangle buckle must match width of belt. 2-2.5 inches wide

connix: saddle tan, silver rectangle buckle must be weathered and match width of belt. 2-2.5 inches wide.

Rank badge dimentions

connix: silver rectangle, with gently curved corners.
2 thirds of right hand side are weathered, with small red dot (indented?). Left hand side has two red lines, one wide, one thin line.

Generic: Same as connix but with appropriate rank symbol on right hand side. Red for army, blue for navy

Hair for Connix...it goes without saying that the hair STYLE must match the character, but should it be blond only....blond being natural blond, dyed blond or wig.
For generic, hair is not an issue.



connix: I agree about the hair colour not being just blonde, as long as its in the buns with the center parting.

Generic: There seem to be 3 styles of hair for generic. 2 side buns, pulled back or half up half down. We could make it optional, would be cool if we all looked the same-ish.

Have I missed any points?

The calico undershirt, its seen on a few generics and on connix. Are we including it as an option or required?

some of them wear little brown peaked caps.
belt pouches-only seem them in saddle tan
gun-which one?
holster-do we have any reference to the holster?
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 07, 2018 11:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thank you all for the additional input...
also...

let's keep the discussion civil....

I have put some of my ideas in violet

tenebris wrote:
Jacket: need color, fabric choice, stitching details (both front and back and generic vs Connix) that will be deemed acceptable to all. Location and approximate size of Rebel Alliance insignia. Width of quilting lines.

I think that connix and the generics are the same. I don't think we need to have a difference?

The reason that I brought up the generic vs Connix on the jacket was because of the issues brought up about the back of the costume mainly. We can leave off the adjustable belt entirely if that is acceptable...or make it optional on either generic or Connix.

Mid cotton/cotton lawn muted brown/yellowy gold......does anyone here have the ability to do that pantone thing as that would be really helpful.


Pantone: something like this?

https://www.pantone.com/color-finder/14-0952-TCX


here is some more colors that Pantone states is in the "mustard" family:



Front has no panels or darts, shoulder seams start further down the shoulder at a slight angle. Front opening with an off center front 2 inches? more?
length, top of the thigh? 1 third down the top of the leg?
stand collar how high?


Thank you for this....and...the collar and how high would be something that would probably need to be a little flexible as there are people with no neck (like me) and others who have much longer necks...so I would like to avoid a strict measurement. Also I more like the idea of generalized measurements like 1/3 down...etc...because we all are so very different in height.

back has princess seams/shaping panels from say halfway down the back of the armhole? that go down to the hem or are we stating there needs to be a waist seam and it stop there?

I don't believe a waist seam should be actually required....for the most part the waist seam would generally be hidden by the belt...so those who want to put it there can...those who don't want to should probably not have to...



insignia:

connix: left side chest, (the insigina is approx double the height of the rank badge in height and 1 and a third times the width/or 8 quilting lines)

generics: left side chest or top of left sleeve.


Thank you for this also!!

Pants: need color range and fabric choices that are acceptable to all - this is TLJ only.

Generics: brown twill.

connix: brown twill or olive twill.

I would add to the olive twill description that it really not render too olive. In looking at a lot of previous submissions, many of the pants that were submitted looked too green (as well as some of the Poe submissons). This, of course, could very well be lighting and flash etc....so...I would maybe say "dark olive" ?

Its easy to get hold of in most countries and is cheap. the trousers detail should def be included too (ie sections and knee pads).


Boots: we agree that boots are knee high and dark brown with a zipper on the inside (between the legs) surface of the boots. Boots appear to have a rather pointed toe with a low heel. Should boots be allowed plain or have the detail of the top strap and Sam Browne stud (generic vs Connix)?


Generics: flat calf length mid brown boots/ with velcro top strap? They have a partial zip so could make them pull on or zip?

(they all seem to wear the po-zu ones, but they only start at a size 8/euro 42 so we need to think of a more generic description).

connix: I don't think they are overly pointed, If we are going to say bog standard mid/dark brown knee boots I think we should add the strap, you could even glue it on and a same browne is really easy to source.

I agree that we can make the boots a little lenient. I am good with just asking for a dark brown (not mahogany colored or light brown) boot that is at least higher than mid calf and below the knee. They should have a conservative heel and can have a zipper up on the inside surface of the boot. Boots should be plain and lack any ornamentation (like buckles and straps at the ankle or some of those huge panels of elastic) other than an optional strap and Sam Browne stud at the top.




Belt and buckle: color and width of belt. Size range for buckle.


Generics: mid brown/dark brown/saddle tan, silver rectangle buckle must match width of belt. 2-2.5 inches wide

connix: saddle tan, silver rectangle buckle must be weathered and match width of belt. 2-2.5 inches wide.

thank you for putting some measurements up...


Rank badge dimentions

connix: silver rectangle, with gently curved corners.
2 thirds of right hand side are weathered, with small red dot (indented?). Left hand side has two red lines, one wide, one thin line.

Hair for Connix...it goes without saying that the hair STYLE must match the character, but should it be blond only....blond being natural blond, dyed blond or wig.
For generic, hair is not an issue.



connix: I agree about the hair colour not being just blonde, as long as its in the buns with the center parting.

Sounds fine to me....as many of you are probably aware, there have been a lot of heated discussions about hair...so...I just wanted to put it out there about color of hair.

Generic: There seem to be 3 styles of hair for generic. 2 side buns, pulled back or half up half down. We could make it optional, would be cool if we all looked the same-ish.


For generics...I am not too concerned at all about color or style of hair...again...it was just something I felt needed to be put "out there".



Have I missed any points?

some of them wear little brown peaked caps.
belt pouches-only seem them in saddle tan
gun-which one?
holster-do we have any reference to the holster?


As far as the holster, blaster, and caps....those can all be optional items and can be discussed or included if something can be fleshed out on them. If people wish to add either of these items, they can do so when they do events but the holster and cap can be left off the discussion at this time.
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 07, 2018 12:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think perhaps those colours are too bright and need a bit more brown in? The vanity fair pic is quite bright, so is the screen cap of her back that was posted yesterday but alot of the other pics of connix and the generics its a bit more muted.

Again the new films and the lighting jeez







I think more like pantone old gold, sunset gold, pale marigold? its a really hard colour. its also very hard to source and dye. Maybe a specturum is needed?

With the olive it is a bit green, but like muted. I think maybe pantone olive drab or olive branch. if its too brown then it might be too close to the brown?

I thought Poes trousers are brown?
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