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RotJ Mon Mothma - Input Needed for Standard Update
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Granny-Wan (Marie Cannon)
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 23, 2017 12:02 pm    Post subject: RotJ Mon Mothma - Input Needed for Standard Update Reply with quote

It's become apparent the standard needs updating, clarifying, more detail, etc.

This is not unusual, when we get more and better references it's time to re-examine.

All input welcome! Pictures are a bonus. Please post with your theory and let's talk about it!

NOTE: This is for the RotJ version, the standard is here: http://newsite.rebellegion.com/mon-mothma-episode-vi-2/

Discussion for the Rogue One version is here: http://www.forum.rebellegion.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=91716
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PondLife81 (Christine Evans)
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 28, 2017 9:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Is this the conversation thread for the standard update for ROTJ or is there another one like R1? Please let me know.

Thank you
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Granny-Wan (Marie Cannon)
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 28, 2017 9:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This for Return of the Jedi version.

Rogue One version is here: Discussion for the Rogue One version is here: http://www.forum.rebellegion.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=91716
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 30, 2017 6:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
1. Ivory or cream colored tunic made from a soft, natural fabric, with a jewel-neck collar and wide, loose fitting sleeves.
The tunic must have side seams, and the sleeves must be closed with an underarm seam. Ponchos or other open sided garments are not acceptable.
The length of the tunic must be at or just below the knee. The fabric should be heavy enough, or be lined, so that the under dress does not show through. Sleeves should be knuckle length before being pulled up to just above the wrist with a large sleeve fold that is tacked down.
2. Deep brown under dress, made from a soft, natural fabric such as jersey, with a full gathered skirt. The sleeves must be tight fitting and gathered at the wrists. A skirt and shirt is also acceptable.
3. A necklace consisting of two dull gray twisted cords, with a round, silver pendant, detailed as it appears in the movie, suspended from two smaller, twisted cords in the center. The necklace should be attached at each shoulder and end with the gray cord wrapped around a small, domed object, such as a button, with single strand of the large gray cord around the back of the collar.
4. Flat or low heeled (1″ or less) brown shoes or boots. No visible laces, buckles, or zippers, no spike heels.
5. Appropriately-styled hair shorn above the collar; naturally-occurring hair colors only.


For starters, “Ivory or cream colored tunic” is incorrect. My research has shown that it is a poncho with open sides. This screencap:



Shows that the sides of the poncho are intact open which means it would not have sleeves.



The plate that we have from the research book also insicates a poncho with open sides:



The way that the garment drapes also indicates that it is open-sided and has no sleeves.




Next would be the chains of Office or “necklace”. In the photos that I have, it is clear to me that there are gold, white, and black satin chords twisted in with the gray.




The boots, dress, and hair all sound just fine to me in the original standard.

Hope this was helpful!
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Granny-Wan (Marie Cannon)
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 30, 2017 9:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes on the necklace, there are three different colors. We should be more specific on the length.

But I do not see the top as a poncho, none of the photos look like a poncho to me. Perhaps it doesn't need separate sleeves, but it does need to be sewn up the sides to keep the underdress from showing.
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Lipstkadvntr (Cate Broomhead)
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 30, 2017 10:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The under dress does not show because of the width of the garment, not because the sides are sewn up. If you think of it like a table cloth with a hold cut in the middle for the neck, it makes sense. I measure my fabrics on my costume so that with the tuck, it would sit st my wrists. If the garment is that wide, the under dress will never show even if the sides are not sewn closed.

Length of the necklace will depend on the person. I am only 5’, so the length of my chords will be different from other people depending on height and torso length/chest size. My gray chords drape over my breasts while the amulet sits on my breast bone about where my heart is. I played with that length while looking at the photos I put in my above comment to make sure they looked the same.

I am also basing the garment being a poncho and open-sided on those photos. Nowhere in them are the sides stitched closed.
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 30, 2017 11:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The photos supplied by Lipstickadvr are very compelling. The screen caps from the film directly show that there is a full opening and that in one the hang is uneven, showing there is not a reinforced stitch or it wouldn't cause it to move.

I cannot see evidence of where there is stitching? Granny-Wan could you point it out or supply a reference please.

I do believe that there should be some sort of guiding reference on the lengths of the necklaces. But it would have to be something to the defense of "three inches down from the collar in proportion to the wearer". Shoulder widths and chest depth could influence a straight out measurement.

For colors again I would strongly recommend a Pantone rainbow posted along with example can be red, green, or blue. That can aid in the confusion on colors.
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Granny-Wan (Marie Cannon)
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 30, 2017 11:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Those are the only photos or screen caps I have found. I simply do not see it. I'm not sure how anyone does. If we put it to a vote that should settle the question. That is up to the DCO, but it seems reasonable that it be done.

If we allow open sides, then the shirt/skirt option would not be good, the underdress would need to be one piece so that we don't have a waistband showing.

Of course any change will not affect any costumes already approved.

For the necklace length, how about a range of inches from the collarbone, for example, or something along the lines of "ends at the breastbone". I have seem some that hang down past the bust line and they don't look right. Neutral

Does it look to any of you like the center of the shoulder knot is red? Or more specifically, silver with red in the center? Smile
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 31, 2017 1:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I can continue to research and collect other images as I have with R1 (I also have another book on the way) but knowing fabrics as I do and the way it hangs and drapes it shows that the sides are open and hanging free. I don't really see how this would effect the use of a Two piece underdress, the continuation of which would be very convenient for some body types and skill levels. The width of the top garment is wide enough that a well placed waistband would be hidden. (Connected but not connected, I have a back image from R1 that shows the ridge outline of a zipper center back of the underdress)

As per colors of the shoulder buttons, I see color variations but I think this is reflection off of one of the other colors. I will look at it on a better screen later.
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 31, 2017 2:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

There's a different thread posted for Rogue One, since the shoulders are different, and the necklace. If you have some screen caps for that, post them there, it would be very helpful.
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 02, 2018 12:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Granny-Wan wrote:
There's a different thread posted for Rogue One, since the shoulders are different, and the necklace.


I am aware that there is a different post and I am enjoying collecting and sharing images for both of these projects. I was just mentioning it in passing.

I would like to do anything to assist in clarifying any of the images that I present here. So that we may verify what is going on in the makeup of this costume.

I am including this licensed image by Ralph McQuarrie called "Rebels Plot attack". It is a cleaned up artistic image of what is occurring in the screen grabs, this should help you see around the shadowing and filters put on during production. This is what I see when I look at the Screen grabs and stills of Mothma's upper layer.



Next I am offering a series of behind the scenes photos. You can see the hang and drag of the fabric and the open nature of the bottom of the top layer. If you look closely you can also see the double points of the front and the back of this garment.



A back view of a Behind the Scenes image, again you can see the one solid piece of the garment. The deep folds of the fabric in the back show the free flowing nature, lacking any form of tacking.



Here is a side view from the opposite direction, you can see the double "U" shaped hang down over the sleeve.



If there are certain questions that you have that might help me to explain what I am seeing in these images please let me know.

Again, I am more than happy to share any images that I have posted to create an archive.
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 02, 2018 2:18 am    Post subject: Thoughts Reply with quote

Looks like great dialogue!

Definitely a poncho; to the concern of it sliding back and forth it could be attached to her underpinnings (shirt? underdress?) at the shoulders where the cords are attached. It reminds me of a dress my mom had in the late 70's, and the poncho was attached there and had one small stitch at the hem under each arm to keep the wrists from sliding crooked over the forearms. As a costumer for members intent on approval, one thing I would like to see more of in descriptions of where collars, etc. should fall is a body specific place instead of "inches", since inches are different for everyone based on build.

There is also an interesting tuck on the sleeve, with extra pleat volume in the photos. I would offer the outfit consists of an under dress, with a shoulder anchored poncho that has a tucked sleeve on the forearm much like the Jedi OT shoulder tucks, and/or possibly anchored to the undersleeve to make the tuck.

Such a great costume and I love to see Standards and CRL's come together!
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 02, 2018 4:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I am in agreement that it is a poncho style that's just gathered on the forearm. I don't see any signs of it being stitched down each side. Ponchos are a staple in the original trilogy so it is not out of character for her to be wearing one.
I am looking into making a Mon Mothma in the next couple weeks and would like to make it as screen accurate as possible, and I believe it to be open on the sides.
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 02, 2018 6:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I also agree on the poncho. Also it is gathered at the forarm. And the reference on the necklace clearly shows multiple colors.
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 04, 2018 1:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here's the description of mine and I'll try to add some of the research photos we used and the construction photos we took (bear with me since I'm not 100% sure how to go about that).

"The underdress is a full-length long-sleeve chocolate brown jersey knit with a balloon hem at the bottom. The tunic is a cream-colored hand-dyed linen blend fabric that is fully lined. Cording is two strands of grey/silver twisted cording and a single strand of grey/white cording. There is a single strand of the grey/silver twisted cording on the back. Pendant was purchased from PhantasmDesigns and is 3D printed in polished metal plastic. Costume was constructed by costumer Toriander Colbrunn of Fredericksburg, VA. Shoes are a chocolate brown leather with with no buckles, zippers, or fasteners."

I went back through all the discussions with Toriander while she was constructing it and here's what she wrote me: "I've decided on the crinkle cotton fabric, slightly dyed off-white and ironed flat. After seeing the Return of the Jedi in HD, it looks the most similar to the original fabric. The top doesn't really have sleeves and is more of a poncho. ...It is made with a single seam across the shoulders like the original, and has the internal padded collar part underneath."

I will note that we added a diagonal stitch on both sides of the poncho to make it easier for me to get on/off -- it's invisible to anyone looking at it (due to the drape) but helps keep it centered on me.

Also note that originally we had the wrong buttons on the shoulders and had to correct them -- the correct buttons are the silver "half-ball" buttons and not the 3D printed ones that are more from the unused footage in the prequels.

Here are the photos that we submitted -- (please pardon the 8-million ads Photobucket now has with it) -- http://s30.photobucket.com/user/mysterychix/library/Mon%20Mothma%20-%20Mysterychix%20Rebel%20Legion%20Submission?sort=3&page=1

That should also contain a sub-album that has all the reference photos we used in it.

deb

PS -- I would also echo what someone on the FB thread said -- we can't make this an impossible costume to do and we can't be costume snobs about it. At my very first troop EVER after getting it approved (SW Celebration) I was so excited and I was complimenting someone on their costume and their first words to me where pointing out there errors in my costume ("well this is wrong and that is wrong"). I was humiliated. I understand we all want to help each other be better, but to publicly admonish a fellow member for work they had done (and I had hand-done the braiding on the shoulders) made me feel TERRIBLE. A weaker person would have left the RL right then and there -- but I stuck with it and I'm proud to wear the Mon Mothma costume and represent the Rebellion!
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