Forum and Costume Controls

   FAQFAQ  SearchSearch  MemberlistMemberlist   UsergroupsUsergroups  medals.php?sid=f77ab174f47eec4ae521cd7c81167344Medals   RegisterRegister   ProfileProfile   Log in to check your private messagesLog in to check your private messages   Log inLog in

       
REMINDER: Do not change your e-mail address yourself. Please read this first for why.

'Unreasonable' standards
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9  Next
 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Rebel Legion Forum Index -> General Discussion -> Rebel Rumblings
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
Ritin Kornas ()
Helvetica Base CO
Helvetica Base CO


Joined: 09 Jun 2009
Posts: 608
Location: Switzerland
Medals: None

PostPosted: Sun Dec 10, 2017 9:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, excuse me, but I would find this process of requiring a WIP thread to be very distasteful. First because of language problems. And no offense but, it seems to be something native english speakers members seems to be forgetting in general, you are not the only ones in the rebel legion and english is not the only language spoken...
I know members from various bases and outpost, speaking various languages, and in each of those bases, I know people who don't speak a word of english... Actually, the ones in each of them that can understand well English to have 0 problems understanding the standards, are not the majority.

And from that point of view, sorry to tell you that the 501st CRL are not better and not clearer than some standards here.

Also what is this practice of not allowing everyone to talk in a WIP thread ? Everyone should be able to express its opinion...
_________________
CO Rebel Legion Helvetica Base (serving Switzerland)
Member of the RL Galactic Senate Council
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
thebrighton (Gareth Collier)
Active Legion Member


Joined: 28 Jul 2016
Posts: 23
Location: East Sussex
Medals: None

PostPosted: Sun Dec 10, 2017 10:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ritin Kornas wrote:

Also what is this practice of not allowing everyone to talk in a WIP thread ? Everyone should be able to express its opinion...

But not if they are giving incorrect information. Sorry but I can't see how language has anything to do with it. When communicating with overseas garrisons etc I find Google translates things easily.
_________________
RL - Tusken Raider
RL - Bantha Rider
RL - RFT
RL - Endor Commando
RL - X Wing Pilot
501st - Stormtrooper, Snowtrooper, Tusken, Weequay,Biker Scout
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
hyperguyver2 (James Kelly)
Active Legion Member


Joined: 23 Feb 2014
Posts: 105
Location: Bedford, IN
Medals: None

PostPosted: Sun Dec 10, 2017 10:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

But what about those cases where someone posts a WIP, is meeting all the base requirements but gets met with both rejection and hostility from members of a detactment before even applying or are being denied approval because of personal issues from outside of the legion act as an active roadblock? The costume is still being made according to the exisiting CRLs and mostly meets quality standards(the costume is still incomplete), there are just those who dont want to see it get approved or will not approve it because of personal prejudices.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Jada ()
Active Legion Member


Joined: 05 Mar 2008
Posts: 5818
Location: Charlotte, NC
Medals: 2 (View more...)
Rebel Legion CV Supporter (Amount: 1)

PostPosted: Mon Dec 11, 2017 4:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm hearing talk about there not being a standard written for a costume. Back when I was a Costume Judge and a Detachment CO, anyone could write a CRL and then the detachment CO/XO & respective LCJ would review it.

Is that not still the case?
_________________
Active: Legion Member

Retired:
LXO, BCO, DCO, LCJ

Unbowed, Unbent, Unbroken
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
ladysolo14 ()
Legion Membership Officer
Legion Membership Officer


Joined: 21 Jan 2016
Posts: 663
Location: Chicago
Medals: None

PostPosted: Mon Dec 11, 2017 5:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jada wrote:
I'm hearing talk about there not being a standard written for a costume. Back when I was a Costume Judge and a Detachment CO, anyone could write a CRL and then the detachment CO/XO & respective LCJ would review it.

Is that not still the case?


Anyone can write a standard and send it to the detachment for review. I have told many people that they can write or help propose revisions to standards. We need more people to help, I have reached out to others to talk about their ideas on how they think things can be fixed. I have done my best to open all lines of communication but very few people have taken the initiative to contact me.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Ritin Kornas ()
Helvetica Base CO
Helvetica Base CO


Joined: 09 Jun 2009
Posts: 608
Location: Switzerland
Medals: None

PostPosted: Mon Dec 11, 2017 9:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jada wrote:
I'm hearing talk about there not being a standard written for a costume. Back when I was a Costume Judge and a Detachment CO, anyone could write a CRL and then the detachment CO/XO & respective LCJ would review it.

Is that not still the case?


Well, few years ago I had proposed a standard for a costume in the dedicated topic and never got any answer about it... so...

Now it seems it's supposed to go though the detachments...
But this information is not written anywhere it should apparently... or not clearly visible.

I mean this section dedicated to the standards : http://www.forum.rebellegion.com/forum/viewforum.php?f=31

The only topic about submitting new one is from 2007... http://www.forum.rebellegion.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=8979

And it doesn't say to contact detachment. Maybe would it be beneficial then to make a sticky post to explain how we can now submit a new standard ?
And lock the other one, but without suppressing it, there are some useful draft in it.
_________________
CO Rebel Legion Helvetica Base (serving Switzerland)
Member of the RL Galactic Senate Council
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
ladysolo14 ()
Legion Membership Officer
Legion Membership Officer


Joined: 21 Jan 2016
Posts: 663
Location: Chicago
Medals: None

PostPosted: Mon Dec 11, 2017 3:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ritin Kornas wrote:
Jada wrote:
I'm hearing talk about there not being a standard written for a costume. Back when I was a Costume Judge and a Detachment CO, anyone could write a CRL and then the detachment CO/XO & respective LCJ would review it.

Is that not still the case?


Well, few years ago I had proposed a standard for a costume in the dedicated topic and never got any answer about it... so...

Now it seems it's supposed to go though the detachments...
But this information is not written anywhere it should apparently... or not clearly visible.


These things are being worked on. My team is working on properly documenting all of the processes around standards in addition to incorporating feedback we have received from members to make standards better. As I stated before, this process does not happen overnight. So please be patient and if you want to be part of the solution contact me.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Jada ()
Active Legion Member


Joined: 05 Mar 2008
Posts: 5818
Location: Charlotte, NC
Medals: 2 (View more...)
CVI Supporter (Amount: 1)

PostPosted: Mon Dec 11, 2017 7:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think a lot of members don't realize they can be part of the CRL process.

It might be helpful to periodically remind detachment leadership to make their members aware or evenall if members can volunteer to write CRLs. I don't know if it standard practice but when I was a costume judge my acceptance email had links to the appropriate detachment(s) for the costume.
_________________
Active: Legion Member

Retired:
LXO, BCO, DCO, LCJ

Unbowed, Unbent, Unbroken
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
Lasombrant (Evan Roth)
Active Legion Member


Joined: 07 Feb 2016
Posts: 107
Location: Metairie, La.
Medals: 1 (View more...)
Troopers Helping Troopers (Amount: 1)

PostPosted: Mon Dec 11, 2017 8:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I agree with most of what I am reading here. there are many great suggestions and it seems like we all do know where most of the weaknesses are. I have also been thinking of how the 501st handles judging and am wondering about a hybrid option to help streamline the process. If each Base had at least one member to act as an intermediate judge to prequalify that a potential was ready for judging that would be a huge help. sure some things might still get missed but most should be pretty on track. I have many a time use another set of eyes to read or look at a reference and can't say how many times I was stuck looking at thing one way were a different interpretation was staring me in the face or overlooked. Most bases have someone already that is good with detail and probably willing to help in this way. That person would have more time to be involved with the whole process and help steer the building the right direction or at least check WIP to standards. They could also work as a intermediary between member and judge to help prevent miscommunication. This person would also be receiving valuable experience towards becoming a LCJ themselves.
Just a thought.
_________________
“Jedi do not fight for peace. Jedi fight for civilization, because only civilization creates peace. We fight for justice because justice is the fundamental bedrock of civilization: an unjust civilization is built upon sand. It does not long survive a storm.”
― Matthew Woodring Stover, Shatterpoint
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
DroidWelder ()
Active Legion Member


Joined: 21 Aug 2008
Posts: 991
Location: Arizona
Medals: 2 (View more...)
Rebel Legion Supporter (Amount: 1)

PostPosted: Tue Dec 12, 2017 4:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lasombrant wrote:
...If each Base had at least one member to act as an intermediate judge to prequalify that a potential was ready for judging that would be a huge help. sure some things might still get missed but most should be pretty on track. ... That person would have more time to be involved with the whole process and help steer the build in the right direction or at least check WIP to standards. They could also work as a intermediary between member and judge to help prevent miscommunication. This person would also be receiving valuable experience towards becoming a LCJ themselves.
Just a thought.


I think this idea and a few other modifications to the overall process would greatly improve things, and lower the number of costume submissions being denied.
Of course you would need someone in each base with the time and willingness to provide such a service.

Here is my checklist of things that really need to be done to avoid many of the problems that exist:

1. Anything that gets posted on the CRL needs to be as Accurate and clearly stated as possible.

This is a must! Anyone who follows the CRL while working on their costume will be wasting time and money doing it wrong if the information on the CRL is inaccurate. How would you like it if you were told that your costume is not approve-able after spending a lot of time and money on it because you followed the CRL.

---

2. All information posted on the CRL should be approved and verified by the LCJ's that are responsible for judging the specific costume listed.

This seems like a requirement that you would expect would happen, however, I have seen a couple of cases where it didn't work out that way.
The LCJ's have a discussion about updating the costume standards.
They agree on making certain changes, and then the updated info gets posted to the CRL by some other individual that may not even be an LCJ at all, or is not an LCJ for that particular costume.
This other individual who is responsible for posting the updated information to the CRL, decides to ad-lib, and posts additional information and photos that the LCJ's never approved, and is inaccurate!

I noticed the bad info on the CRL and contacted the individual who posted it, telling them that they need to remove the bad info from the CRL before prospective members waste their time and money doing it wrong.
Since this person has the authority to update the CRL, and I am of no authority here, they blew me off.

I had to contact three of the proper LCJ's to get them to make that individual remove the bad information and photos from the CRL.
This kind of thing cannot be allowed to happen again. Whenever the CRL gets updated, an LCJ for that particular costume should verify that the updated info was posted correctly! (See number 1)

---

3. If incorrect info were to get posted to the CRL, it should not take a committee and a bunch of red tape, and several months or even years to correct or remove the bad info! (See number 1)

---

4. I completely agree with including detailed photos of accurate and approve-able components to the CRL.
It's not that difficult to get detailed pics of screen used costumes now that LFL has been displaying many of them at various events.

---

5. A list of vendors that supply approved costume items should be posted somewhere where those who need the items can easily view it.
In a few of the sub-forums, there is posted a thread of "What you need to know" and IMHO that should be posted in every applicable sub-forum.

---

6. Any vendor that expects to sell their items on the RL forum should expect to send or mail one to an appropriate LCJ for review of the item before they are allowed to start selling them here.

These days any part maker can get on the forum and post their wares for sale. Not all of them are equal. I've been supplying Endor Commando Donut helmets to the RL for several years now. About a year or so ago, I was contacted by an ERT LCJ asking me to make my Donut helmets larger. (Mine are already the largest available. that I know of.)
I was told that they had received several submissions with Donut helmets that were much too small. Those were sold by some other vendor.
I've seen photos posted in WIP threads of donut helmets that were not mine and many of them should not be approve-able on the person wearing it.
Again, people are wasting their money on an item that causes problems with their costume submission.
At the very least, such items should be advertised as "Only approve-able for a smaller individual" or something similar.

The LCJ's (or knowledgeable former LCJ's) should be willing to work with vendors who wish to sell costume items to make the items correctly sized and more accurate where applicable.

Before I even started making the molds for Endor Donuts that I offer, I got input from some of the Endor Commando LCJ's and asked lots of questions. I used an already available donut from another vendor as a reference and asked the LCJ's "How would you make this item better and more accurate?" "What changes would you make to it?"
Once I started making my items, the first one was shipped to the primary LCJ for review.

David L.
_________________


http://www.forum.rebellegion.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=38021

http://www.forum.rebellegion.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=48482


Last edited by DroidWelder () on Tue Dec 12, 2017 4:47 pm; edited 1 time in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Lora Skywalker ()
Detachment XO
Detachment XO


Joined: 24 Jul 2008
Posts: 5969

Medals: None

PostPosted: Tue Dec 12, 2017 4:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Volund Starfire wrote:
The issue is that no LCJs have posted in my WIPs and only one other members and an officer.


Then what am I? A porg? Razz But regarding the one with a lack of references, there isn't really much that can be done; there's good reasons for why the charter today requires that references show front and back of the costume. If those can be found, then great. Otherwise it simply can't be approved by the legion, but anyone can still construct a costume for the fun of it.


I also like Swfangirl's suggestion of changing the wording. Would 'returned' or 'reapply' or something else work better than 'rejected/denied'? And what should it be then? Might as well look for good suggestions for the new system. Smile


I don't think we have any hard statistics on approval/denial rate, but in my experience those with a good wip thread tends to have a higher chance of going straight through or only with minor adjustments when it comes to the application process.
So I'll always recommend making a wip thread, and I myself make it a point to comment often.


Btw. someone asked about what to do if you have references that prove something in the standard is wrong. The answer is simple: you follow the references first and foremost, and simply point it out if necessary.
The standards are meant as a written description of what is seen in the references, and those are what we all will refer to.

And the plan is to be able to add more references to the standards in the future, too. Smile


Where does the line go with standards? Hard to say. If they aren't detailed enough, people complain. If they are highly detailed, people also complain.
But as an LCJ I can say it is much easier to judge from a highly detailed standard than from a vague one. Of course, every costume is judged based on how well it looks like the original, but we don't expect a perfect reproduction every time. That's why things are graded and we look at whether something is a major point or some small half-hidden detail. We do not expect 100 % perfect reproductions nor do we judge that way. At least I don't know any judges who do. Smile
_________________
DXO of Royalty & Senatorial detachment

Detachment website: http://www.senate.rebellegion.com/
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Grey Jedi (Donna Keeley)
Rebel Legion Reserve


Joined: 14 Nov 2002
Posts: 11337

Medals: 9 (View more...)
CVI Supporter (Amount: 1)

PostPosted: Wed Dec 13, 2017 8:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

What happened to the costume reference binder the PR team made back around 2006? It was 600-plus pages with a picture of the actual costume next to a picture of an RL member with that costume. That was back when we first created the Standards and they were a checklist/menu format instead of an essay or Master's thesis.

In the "old days" the Base Membership Officer would approve a costume and there was a lot of difference in acceptable costumes based on how much experience the BMO had. Same thing with the Garrisons; GMOs who were experts in armor were not necessarily good at judging cloth costumes. There were a lot of terrible Imperial Officers at the Celebration III photoshoot.

Maybe a tiered solution is the answer? Have Detachment officers review the costume before submitting to the LCJs.
_________________
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
Milla Sayven ()
Active Legion Member


Joined: 04 Jan 2017
Posts: 179
Location: Kanan Dume, CA
Medals: None

PostPosted: Wed Dec 13, 2017 11:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Past wrote:
One of the major problem is how inaccurate some CRLs are. For example:

I run the Ahsoka Tano Cosplay Support Group along with 4 other RL approved Ahsokas. Our group contains most of the RL approved Ahsoka. And I cannot tell you how many times we had to guide people because the CRL were wrong. An example is how the CRL for the CW S3-5 Ahsoka says the bracers have to be the same material as the tunic. This is wrong, and no Ahsoka has been approved with fabric braces. It has to be leather or leather like material to be approvable. They are the same bracers as S1-2 Ahsoka and the CRL for this version does say leather or leather like material, so why is the CRL for S3-5 different?

This is just ONE exemple among many I've seen.

CRLs need to be clearer. I know it's a pipe dream to think of making CRL like the 501st, but honestly I feel like it would help a lot of future members to at least provide a clear and accurate list of requirements that is not too vague and not overly elaborated. And take down the CRLs that are years old and inaccurate until they are revamped.


If the CRL's are wrong, then pull down the CRL. People spend a lot of time and money in reliance on those CRL's, and if the judge refuses to approve according to the letter of the CRL, then there is a problem.

The CRL's are the law, and judges must enforce the letter of the law, whether they agree with it or not, just like in court.

If you keep a flawed CRL up, I believe a judge must approve any costume that is consistent with the CRL. The "ol' bait & switch" just isn't cricket, and exceeds the judge's discretion.
_________________


Have you ever danced with the krayt dragon in the pale moonlight?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Raquella Anirul (Jennifer Primus)
Active Legion Member


Joined: 06 Jan 2014
Posts: 39
Location: Mobile, AL
Medals: 1 (View more...)
2017 Dragon Con Medal (Amount: 1)

PostPosted: Thu Dec 14, 2017 4:24 am    Post subject: My two cents Reply with quote

I agree with most of what everyone has posted. Yes, costumes need to have a standard level. No problems there. Judging needs to be held to the posted CRL standard and if a discrepancy if found, a member should be allowed to post proof for consideration. Not only could this clear confusion but help with the CRL update. This said, if you are the submitter that provides proof and support for your change, you should also be willing to update the CRL that needs the update to reflect this change. I personally don't have problem with doing that since if I'm personally invested enough to say, "that's wrong and here's my proof," I'm personally involved enough to change the CRL. I've been fortunate enough on my rejection to have a judge who was dedicated to helping applicants and giving suggestions. Much love to her! I think judging boils down with what is reasonable. In my position in real life, I have to make this call with applying the law daily. Remember, there is letter and there is spirit. If in one scene, a character has a piece of duct tape barely visible but then it disappears for every other scene, do we need to really have that as part of the CRL? We must ask what was the original intent in the design of the costume and what is poor editing of a "quick fix" to keep the movie going? If the seam or detail is necessary to the construction and integrity of the costume, and/ or visible for most scenes of the movie then by all means make it required. If it's a not meant to be seen quick fix or such a detail that is not scene but under the rarest of circumstances and with detailed examination well...maybe it should be an optional item. That's my dissertation on this subject. Take it with a grain of salt please.
_________________
Raquella Anirul
Jedi Seer
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Skullflare ()
Base Membership Officer


Joined: 15 Apr 2013
Posts: 40

Medals: None

PostPosted: Thu Dec 14, 2017 2:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

i’ve been helping a few new members with their applications, and I can see their frustration with these builds.
We have a bunch of disconnected & potentially inconsistent references with things where the best answer for most is “it’s in the forums”
I’ll just use the basic pilot for example since it’s a well known kit
If you google rebel legion pilot CRL you get this for the CRL
http://newsite.rebellegion.com/x-wing-pilot-episode-iv-vi-y-wing-pilot-episode-iv/
there are 2 pictures on the page, one from a parade, and one from the briefing, neither helps a prospective member

but when the judges are looking at a costume, this is the standards they are using
http://www.forum.rebellegion.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=8851
there is no link to the judging standards from the main page.

I’ll go a little further down this rabbit hole now that I have your attention
Since a new prospective / newish member would try to look up a costume it’s safe to assume the main page should be able to help someone out
So if you go to the:
Costume > standards > (really anything that can find the x-wing pilot)
You get the above page, no link to the criteria of being judged.

But if you go costume reference > starfighter command
This takes you to what I assume is a work in progress page, none of the links actually work from there, and none of these pages even reference the main CRL

We just had a pilot apply, when he got his feedback, there were all sorts of information in there, but not a single reference to the judging standards on it, please note I do believe that the judge probably assumed the applicant knew this already and had been using the page, but it never hurts to make sure.
Now, I know for a fact that there have been at least 3-4 applicants where at the time of application, the CRL was up on the forums and when they applied, the feedback from the judges was very specific information, that was not on the public posted information.
Now if there is a different set of information for the judges than what’s published? Then that’s a pretty big issue.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Rebel Legion Forum Index -> General Discussion -> Rebel Rumblings All times are GMT
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9  Next
Page 3 of 9

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot post calendar events in this forum
The Rebel Legion is a worldwide Star Wars costuming organization comprised of and operated by Star Wars fans. While not sponsored by Lucasfilm Ltd., it is Lucasfilm's preferred volunteer Rebel costuming group. Star Wars, its characters, costumes, and all associated items are the intellectual property of Lucasfilm. © 2018 Lucasfilm Ltd. & ™ All rights reserved. Used under authorization.


Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group