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Wookiee Costume Standards Discussion
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mad_muppet (Mark Warner)
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 14, 2015 5:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't think it's productive or credible to start a meta-argument about inking techniques. We can't say that albinism in a wookiee is going to mean pink around the eyes, as the coloration there isn't necessarily a result of skin pigmentation and could be some other anatomical/biological feature.

In my opinion, gorillas are not references for wookiees, which are not terrestrial creatures.

The illustration clearly shows blacked out eyes, and the illustration is what we've got. If there's more, let's have a look? Trying to pile on layer upon layer of meta-analysis in an attempt to divine an artist's intent... we could go on about this for years if that's how we're going to make a determination.
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hyperguyver2 (James Kelly)
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 14, 2015 5:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

There is no meta-argument to be made, I didn't spend years of study to get my degree in art and illustration to not know what I am talking about. unfortunately this is where I will say bluntly, you are wrong in regarding the coloration of the eyes; this photo is a clear example of this



The area around the eyes are shown as white, not black, not even a hint of pink is visable here. But this is for this particular wookiee.

As far as I can tell this whole topic has gone off the rails because of the fact that we are aiming for "cookiee cutter" costumes as opposed to encourging individuality and the embracing the variety and differences that can be found in nature itself.

That is why we have generic standards that need to be hammered out fully. The official sources for height is showing an average 2.1 meters or 6'9" in height. Why not stick to this source?

As far as colors go, the colors are going to vary as much as they will in nature, even if it is sci-fi there are still laws of nature to be applied and that means researching the patterns and pigmentations of various animals to ensure that a realistic coloration is achieved. As long as we arw not seeing bright colors or colora that do not occure naturally in mammals should be acceptable.
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Volund Starfire (Jason Ellenburg)
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 14, 2015 6:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

SKIN COLOR
According to the Star Wars Roleplaying Game book Geonosis and the Outer Rim Worlds, Wookiees have gray skin. So, technically speaking, going “black eye” is not canon.

HEIGHT
With regards to height, The Essential Guide to Alien Species states that Wookiees stand on average 2.1 meters (6’10”).

The Star Wars Roleplaying Game Saga Edition Core Rulebook states that female Wookiees are an average of 2 meters (6’6”) tall while male Wookiees are an average of 2.2 meters (7’2”) tall. Their weights are listed at 100 kilograms (220 lbs) for females and 125 kg (275 lbs) for males. [see picture below]

As for young Wookiees, the only on-screen examples are Gungi and Lumpy. Gungi stands 1.53 meters (5’) tall according to Star Wars: Databank. Lumpy was never really seen next to Harrison Ford, but was about half the height of Chewbacca (very young Wookiee).

CONCLUSION & SUPPOSITION
The average height difference within a human’s stature is one head (approximately 1 foot). The means female Wookiee’s can range in height from 1.7 meters (5’6”) to 2.3 meters (7’6”) with male Wookiees ranging from 1.9 meters (6’2”) to 2.5 meters (8’2”) in height. Young Wookiees can range between 1.38 meters (4’6”) and 1.68 meters (5’6”) in height.

Additionally, published sources state that Wookiee skin colors are gray. This means the color spectrum can go from a lighter gray to charcoal (not black or white). Any shade of gray, which complements the coloration of the surrounding fur, should be appropriate for the eyes. Albinism aside, neither white nor black occur in nature. So, a medium gray to charcoal, something to give the look of depth to the eyes with regards to the fur should be appropriate.


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Last edited by Volund Starfire (Jason Ellenburg) on Fri Aug 14, 2015 6:54 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 14, 2015 6:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Didn't mean for my message to cause such a stir...unfortunately the forum shrank the photo. Like mad muppet said, the area around the eyes is very small and was such for the photo I put up. If you look at the high resolution image, there is pink directly around the eyes so no need for artist interpretation.
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hyperguyver2 (James Kelly)
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 14, 2015 7:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Holy crap Jason nice find on that information!
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Wookiewannabe ()
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 14, 2015 7:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Generic or custom wookiees do not have to have reference photo's, they can be custom and done with quality , with the materials listed in the requirements for Generic, can be approved with their own variations such as hair color, skin color, custom accessories, longer moustaches,......The idea is to keep within the realm of a fictional universe. A generic or custom would not be approvable if the materials and the build were not great quality and if the customizations to make it unique were outrageous as mentioned in this thread a few pages back. No crazy jackets or outrageous glasses....using common sense and NOT making such a big deal out of Chest bumps aka boobs and eyes surround colors for a Generic or custom wookiee is what should be done....instead micromanaging someones build is making it off-putting to many....

The judging is done on the quality and the plausability as IF this could be real in the wookiee universe. For every post that says a custom should be this or that, I can show you a generic REBEL LEGION APPROVED wookiee with their own things that negates that statement.....it is a custom one off wookiee in a make believe universe people........
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mad_muppet (Mark Warner)
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 14, 2015 8:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Single source references are references but not strong ones.

With respect James, your art degree is no reference at all and certainly doesn't change the plain as day appearance of that image.

Every generic standard has in universe touch points used as guidance.
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GotWookiee (Matt Pfingsten)
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 14, 2015 8:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The picture of the albino wookiee has pink skin on the fingers and nose. The eyes are probably an artistic technique as James suggests; you can't even see any whites in the eyes.

As far as what's canon as far as wookiee skin colors, it depends on the movie or even the scene in some cases. In Empire and Jedi, Peter wore leather gloves. In A New Hope he had bare fingers, probably with some brown makeup.
Some of the feet were brown, some were cream colored, some were a dark grey. Some had dark grey toe nails and some were white.
The skin visible around the lips is usually cream colored or sometimes flesh tones.

When bringing an illustrated or cartoon costume to live action there will be some interpretation on the part of the costumer. Take Jamie's Gungi costume as a great example of this. If she had been going for literal screen accuracy she might have used foam construction to replicate the stylized look from the clone wars cartoon. Instead, she brought Gungi to life as a live action character and made choices about proportion, hair color and so forth.

What looks good in one medium doesn't necessarily look good in another. A black eyed albino wookiee might look like a raccoon, or it might look great. We won't know until someone makes one.

I know there is a great desire to eliminate confusion for prospective Wookiees by figuring these things out ahead of time. Most of the issues now being discussed are heavy on speculation and imagination. When it comes to both the charter and the standards,a lot of the Legions problems come from this kind of preemptive problem solving.
Sometimes it is best to defer making a decision until you know more.

That's why we don't write CRL's for costumes that no one has made.

Sometimes "I don't know" is the best answer to questions about admissibility. We don't know what the eye sockets of a live action albino Wookiee ought to look like because we've never seen one before. We can imagine, guess, and speculate, but that's a poor basis for defining costume requirements.
It's always important to be conscious of your own ignorance and try to account for that. That's why, when discussing acceptable materials for the body suit, we black list materials we know won't give acceptable results (yarn, shag carpet, faux fur, and the Rubies suit), rather than restrict the admissible materials to a white list of materials and techniques known to be successful (latch hooked hair extensions, national fiber, etc). There may be techniques and materials out there you didn't know about.
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Last edited by GotWookiee (Matt Pfingsten) on Fri Aug 14, 2015 8:59 pm; edited 1 time in total
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mad_muppet (Mark Warner)
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 14, 2015 8:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think what most of us want to avoid is somebody putting a thousand hours into a wookiee that ends up unapprovable because it's just not credible.

Conversely, I think most if not all of us want to avoid the opposite situation, where a poor wookiee is approved in consideration for the hours spent. It's one thing to go to conventions and such with your "best effort" wookiee, but RL approval is an indication of quality and merit to a lot of people.

I think those two things drive the desire to make the standards as objective as they possibly can be. That said, I totally understand why it's nearly impossible to do so. Smile

I think the solution is that some faith has to be placed in and a measure of respect given to the judges to make the determination of credibility and quality, which is why build threads and community participation are important, if not required.
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GotWookiee (Matt Pfingsten)
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 14, 2015 9:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mark, I totally understand where you are coming from. I don't like it when someone has put in a ton of effort only to get rejected.
But it's important to remember that there is no free lunch and any policy aimed at alleviating this problem has a cost.
In a previous discussion I mentioned how concerns over bad tutorials and vendor recommendations could lead someone to a rejection has cost both the Legion and costumers. In that situation I feel that it is better to make providing help and advice a priority at the expense of the occasional victim of bad advice.

In this situation, I don't think the issue of eye socket color I'm albino Wookiees is a big deal. We are essentially talking about eye makeup. If it doesn't work out it is easily reversed.
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mad_muppet (Mark Warner)
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 14, 2015 9:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

When we give up on the eye makeup thing we'll hit the next hurdle. Smile

Ultimately if our understanding as a community is that accepting input and advice from experienced builders is your best route to approval, and that ultimately the judge's call is the determining factor, and everybody can deal with that in a mature, adult fashion without days and pages of drama... well that would be fantastic. Smile

I'm just anticipating a wave of trolling, flooding, and screaming when a costume which is in technical accordance with a deliberately somewhat open standard isn't approved. There has to be respect for the costume judges and their rulings.
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Bacca9 (Jamie "Gingersnap")
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 14, 2015 9:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Guys, listen, no one is judging anyone. Angela is doing a beautiful job on her build and, as was stated in her build thread, Sez and I want her to enjoy her build, finish it, and apply if she so chooses. Jason brings forward some wonderful new research that I think many of us were unaware of. I'm going to look into it because it is an opportunity to learn more about something I care deeply about. I'm also going to have to add that book to my collection I think.

Bottom line is that nothing here is meant to be personal. Sometimes in written forms of communication, it may seem that way, but rest assured, Sez and I only want to serve the Wookiee community and the RL as best we can. We are trying to keep the standards as open as possible and When Angela submits her Wookiee, I truly hope she will submit a standard proposal along with it.
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Sarah1968 (Sarah Hillier)
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 14, 2015 10:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bacca9 wrote:
Guys, listen, no one is judging anyone. Angela is doing a beautiful job on her build and, as was stated in her build thread, Sez and I want her to enjoy her build, finish it, and apply if she so chooses. Jason bringsI did find tribituka distubanly attractive 😅 forward some wonderful new research that I think many of us were unaware of. I'm going to look into it because it is an opportunity to learn more about something I care deeply about. I'm also going to have to add that book to my collection I think.

Bottom line is that nothing here is meant to be personal. Sometimes in written forms of communication, it may seem that way, but rest assured, Sez and I only want to serve the Wookiee community and the RL as best we can. We are trying to keep the standards as open as possible and When Angela submits her Wookiee, I truly hope she will submit a standard proposal along with it.


I want to see Angela's build come to life and eventually be approved as a Generic Female Wookiee. As mentioned above, there are a lot of different and sometimes conflicting images however I'm positive that we can work together.

I look forward to updated build pics and reference images.
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Schph Gochi (Phyllis Schulte)
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 15, 2015 9:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I am hoping that this thread will be constructive...

it is meant to gather ideas and additional information...

As I already know too well from other discussions re: costume standards there is no way everyone is going to be happy...

I have also figured out that if you look hard enough through what is becoming a very huge "galaxy"...you can find an example of just about anything....and there will be likely be a disagreement about is found...

All I ask is that we all understand that everyone has an opinion and to try to keep it civil...
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Grey Jedi (Donna Keeley)
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 15, 2015 7:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Poking my nose into this.

Trying to set nit-picky details is like a dog chasing it's tail. You don't get anywhere.

Sometimes it's easier to discuss a proposed Standard (they are Standards, not CRLs) that is completely written out than to try and create one from scratch. I also think if the builder uses references and includes them with the submission, then the LCJs have something concrete to compare the costume to.



Creatures are always going to present as different heights. Trying to set a minimum is difficult. Setting a minimum range is more effective. Young creatures grow from birth to maturity so their height is always in flux.

Boobs or no boobs, skin tone, eye color; that's just not needed here. Let the builder present their references and let the judges determine if the costume meets it or not.

Okay, speech over. Wink
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