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[New] Prequel Jedi
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Oraculo (Agustín)
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 19, 2015 3:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hello everyone

To close the debate (morning we opened the vote), we will decide for the majority. Most users felt and contributed to this debate, chose the option of a unique tabard not go in the proposal and food capsules are required.

I also agree on the proposal to remove the option of a single tabard and the food capsules are required.

Thank you very much everyone for your cooperation and willingness to debate. It was great the opinion of all.

I propose a suggestion, so that all remain consistent (I take it like an opinion))

Another alternative is to put the option of a single tabard as an optional alternative, in the point of tabards

Best Regards!
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dannv ()
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 19, 2015 4:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Oraculo wrote:
I propose a suggestion, so that all remain consistent (I take it like an opinion))

Another alternative is to put the option of a single tabard as an optional alternative, in the point of tabards

Best Regards!


I think the single tabard should be removed from all proposals for the generic/basic/prequel Jedi standard.
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Oraculo (Agustín)
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 19, 2015 2:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

dannv wrote:
Oraculo wrote:
I propose a suggestion, so that all remain consistent (I take it like an opinion))

Another alternative is to put the option of a single tabard as an optional alternative, in the point of tabards

Best Regards!


I think the single tabard should be removed from all proposals for the generic/basic/prequel Jedi standard.


I removed the point Wink
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rogue9607 (Nick)
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 25, 2015 8:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

So, does the discussion now continue here for refinement of Option 1? I think it's in a generally good place, but the voting discussion did raise a few areas that could probably be tweaked.
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Oraculo (Agustín)
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 25, 2015 8:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

That may be an alternative. Focus our efforts 1.

Another option is to add the comments and suggestions made by some members in the thread of the vote, analyzing the proposals (but it will take much longer)

We must also distinguish good with colors or explain in summary form (as Lora, Cobalt, Dannv and I did) of the changes from the current standard.

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 25, 2015 11:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You need to stop voting and actually start discussing and looking for consensus. I started that but some people don't get the idea of how that works. I serve on a 50 person advisory committee for an international non-profit and that's what we have to do before each quarterly report, via email. It isn't difficult, but it takes people willing to actually try to come to a reasonable conclusion. That failed here, miserably, and I point the blame squarely at the leadership involved.

Since you're in charge, I'd suggest you do a few things, along with and in discussion with everyone else here.

1) Define what we're trying to do as a group. (Accurate SW costuming was what I thought, but that appears to not be the case.)
2) Define what a particular standard should cover (basic prequel jedi, jedi academy jedi, kotor jedi, TCW jedi general, or whatever.)
3) Base the standard on available sources for the costume in question. Don't include things form other costumes. (Make a separate standard for whatever the other costume is if it's needed.)
4) Discuss the sources, look for support for items included in the standard, drop things you can't find sources for or that are part of a different costume even if it's your favorite thing.
5) Put forward a proposal with a clear definition of what it is supposed to be. See if there is support for it.
6) Repeat for any other costume that seems common enough to need a standard and be sure everyone realizes that there is no intent to exclude anyone or any specific type of costume, rather that they all should be included in their own standard instead of being all lumped into one mess.
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Oraculo (Agustín)
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 26, 2015 12:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

dannv wrote:
You need to stop voting and actually start discussing and looking for consensus. I started that but some people don't get the idea of how that works. I serve on a 50 person advisory committee for an international non-profit and that's what we have to do before each quarterly report, via email. It isn't difficult, but it takes people willing to actually try to come to a reasonable conclusion. That failed here, miserably, and I point the blame squarely at the leadership involved.

Since you're in charge, I'd suggest you do a few things, along with and in discussion with everyone else here.

1) Define what we're trying to do as a group. (Accurate SW costuming was what I thought, but that appears to not be the case.)
2) Define what a particular standard should cover (basic prequel jedi, jedi academy jedi, kotor jedi, TCW jedi general, or whatever.)
3) Base the standard on available sources for the costume in question. Don't include things form other costumes. (Make a separate standard for whatever the other costume is if it's needed.)
4) Discuss the sources, look for support for items included in the standard, drop things you can't find sources for or that are part of a different costume even if it's your favorite thing.
5) Put forward a proposal with a clear definition of what it is supposed to be. See if there is support for it.
6) Repeat for any other costume that seems common enough to need a standard and be sure everyone realizes that there is no intent to exclude anyone or any specific type of costume, rather that they all should be included in their own standard instead of being all lumped into one mess.


Hello Dannv

It is a very good proposal that you raise

We were almost six weeks of intense debate over the standard.
This costume encompasses standard styles seen in Episodes I-III, as animated series The Clone Wars, videogames, comics prequel, and New Republic comics / Books that include a typical Jedi tunic / tabard / obi combination. Most of the members who debated the issue as judges, agreed with this definition of the standard (and do not devote little time for debate).

Although it can be very confusing for the future member if we separate each type of Jedi as you raise. It is a generic standard.

I will discuss with the team these points that you propose. If a majority of the judges agree and Staff KJO agree to separate this standard in most types of Jedi, we started the project. So if you can be very long to complete 100% of the standards (although you can work it)

With regard to the difusion, from now we will notify each Master of the Temple, publish it in the FanPage of KJO and advise on every forum every Temple.

Best Regards!
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rogue9607 (Nick)
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 26, 2015 2:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Option 1, which had an overwhelming amount of support, is an accurate standard for tunic/tabard/obi style of Jedi based on prequel and new republic reference. There are combinations that may not have direct reference, but, per the charter, the Jedi category allows for some customization, and this feels like a reasonable solution.

Labeling the category with "prequel" still doesn't sit right with me though... What about "Generic Traditional Jedi"? Still not perfect, but would it at least capture the essence as we presumably introduce more standards with new material?

From the other discussion while voting, the big questions I saw (both in the thread and from my base) were about the uniform width tabards and if the alien list was all inclusive. Any objections to softening the language on tabard width (which already is a should, not a must - so already not mandatory) and adding a note that other alien species can be Jedi if the member provides reference (which I assume would be the case anyway, but seemed to freak some people out)?

I'll work on a comparison of Option 1 vs current that highlights the differences.
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rogue9607 (Nick)
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 26, 2015 3:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I put together the Google Doc linked below to compare Option 1 with the current standard. I did make a couple of minor tweaks to option 1 (places where a letter was skipped in the bullets, spelling, etc). I also reordered the current standard so that it aligns with Option 1.

This should be viewable for anyone with the link. Red items were removed, blue were added, and green was a significant modification.

Please note that the significance of the adds/removals/modifications are based on my opinion, but I can change coloring if so desired.

https://docs.google.com/document/d/18wEYDxsJC8IGYE9N7WARqVmpJGBOiJF3zJ5Gt7VzfSM/edit?usp=sharing
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dannv ()
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 26, 2015 3:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Oraculo wrote:
We were almost six weeks of intense debate over the standard.
This costume encompasses standard styles seen in Episodes I-III, as animated series The Clone Wars, videogames, comics prequel, and New Republic comics / Books that include a typical Jedi tunic / tabard / obi combination. Most of the members who debated the issue as judges, agreed with this definition of the standard (and do not devote little time for debate).

Although it can be very confusing for the future member if we separate each type of Jedi as you raise. It is a generic standard.


The point is that not all of those types of Jedi have the same costume. Would the new republic Jedi with borders on his tabards and obi, no sleeves on his OT, a burgundy IT and a blue OT look right if you put them into the prequel movies or would they stick out as something different?

Quote:

I will discuss with the team these points that you propose. If a majority of the judges agree and Staff KJO agree to separate this standard in most types of Jedi, we started the project. So if you can be very long to complete 100% of the standards (although you can work it)

With regard to the difusion, from now we will notify each Master of the Temple, publish it in the FanPage of KJO and advise on every forum every Temple.

Best Regards!


Letting everyone know if a discussion is taking place would be FANTASTIC. Thank you.

As to the standards being split, if you read what I proposed, you'll see it is a transitional proposal, including two eras in a way that would make splitting it into two easy, either now or later. Now would be better, IMO because then people don't feel like their favorite costume is being excluded. Part of the argument was due to people feeling like they were being excluded and we don't want to do that or make them feel like they are second class while more standards are created.
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 26, 2015 3:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

rogue9607 wrote:
Option 1, which had an overwhelming amount of support, is an accurate standard for tunic/tabard/obi style of Jedi based on prequel and new republic reference. There are combinations that may not have direct reference, but, per the charter, the Jedi category allows for some customization, and this feels like a reasonable solution.


Actually, it isn't an accurate standard for episode 1-3 Jedi. It includes them, but it also allows all sorts of things that would be terribly out of place. It allows for costumes that aren't even remotely close to anything in SW just by combing allowed options. The closest thing in the RL would be combining all of the pilot standards, throwing in some things you see on one-off costumes somewhere and claiming it was an accurate standard for an x-wing pilot. I feel that's the wrong way to go, but I'm done arguing it. If the RL wants to look foolish, it can. I'll make my costumes based on reference materials.
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rogue9607 (Nick)
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 26, 2015 3:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

dannv wrote:

The point is that not all of those types of Jedi have the same costume. Would the new republic Jedi with borders on his tabards and obi, no sleeves on his OT, a burgundy IT and a blue OT look right if you put them into the prequel movies or would they stick out as something different?


I understand your point, but we're never going to be put into a prequel movie and if a given event wants only prequel Jedi, then none of these standards will be of much help (someone at the base level would need to go through each costume individually). As it currently stands, we don't even note what standard should apply to a given application unless the member makes note of it in their description or uses an obvious costume name, and no artifact exists after approval to note what someone was approved as.

To some degree I think there's a conflict between a conceptual approach to what the standards should be and the practical implication of these standards. Conceptually, I agree with your breakout of Prequel and Legends, but I feel the difference would be lost in practice. If I'm judging a generic Jedi that fits this general style under your standard, and they don't specify "prequel", I'll judge them against Legends every time. If I recall correctly, your Legends category and Option 1 were *very* similar, so that's where I see the distinction losing traction in application.
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Oraculo (Agustín)
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 26, 2015 4:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nick very good job. The comparison is excellent. We will see what you think the judges and the staff of KJO. So far point 1 was the one that had more support from the majority. The debate is necessary and everything we did before was not in vain. All contribute.

We can take into account the comments that we saw in the first ballot and improve the standard analysis.

Best Regards!
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 26, 2015 5:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just a reminder that we did indeed have a split era for the Generic Jedi (Old Republic and New Jedi Order) standards before, and it didn't work out very well, hence the overall Generic Standard having been adopted. Wink
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 26, 2015 3:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Oraculo wrote:
The Issue of capsules of food, we put as an optional element

What do you think?


In terms of the standards, I'd just presume they be optional. Honestly, for many local events where I wear my Jedi, I've been known to leave them behind as minor accent pieces that could easily break/get lost. (mine are made from the original pen caps, and the metal clips tend to wear over time)

Once you start making them a required item, pretty soon people start bickering over HOW MANY should be required (both in number and color) for a Generic Jedi... when there's really NO canon guideline for that; just personal preference.
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