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ANH Ben Kenobi Belt pictures Part 2

 
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Ben Kenobi (Paul Moomey)
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 12, 2013 7:52 pm    Post subject: ANH Ben Kenobi Belt pictures Part 2 Reply with quote

This thread is a continuation of the discussion of the belt pictures to cover the banana pouch and how it is connected to the belt.

My primary goal was to try to get more detail about the construction of the pouch to see if it was functional and how it was made. I was not able to find any pictures that would provide that kind of detail. Secondly, there has been some speculation about whether or not the connection to the belt was such that it would travel or float along the belt. While trying to accomplish those two goals I found some other items of interest.

First - the pouch is not floating on the belt - it is permanently attached. As you can see in some of the pictures, it appears to be attached in the same manner as the d-ring that is discussed in Part 1. Second - there is something attached to the flap of the pouch. At the very least it is a greeblie on the flap OR it is part of the closing mechanism on the flap. I cannot get enough detail to see how it functions if it is part of a closing mechanism.

The first pic is un adjusted. After cropping and adjusting for exposure and brightness you can see the connection does not loop around the belt but is attached like the d-ring with one stud at the bottom of the belt. You can also see the outline of the front right greeblie and how close it is to the belt connection.

[img]

[/img]

This shows the rear connection also does not loop over the belt. The big surprise here is the greeblie on the flap of the pouch. There doesn't appear to be any other leather flaps that would help to secure the flap along with this new find so I'm inclined to think it is just a greeblie. There are more pics of this later.

[img]

The next two show the stud on the rear connection on the pouch as well as how close it is to the long greeblie on the right rear of the belt.

[/img]

[img]

This shows the connection a little more clearly as well as a possible hole in the belt between the pouch connections.

[/img]

The next picture caused some concern as to whether we were seeing another greeblie on the back of the belt. I went back and took more pictures from this scene and confirmed it is the rear connection to the pouch. In the second picture you can see part of the front connection as well as the stud on the front right greeblie which is very close to the front pouch connection.

[img]

[/img]

This pic shows the pouch greeblie plus it shows the edge of the front flap.

[img]

Another view of the flap greeblie.

[/img]

This shot was from the scene where everyone was scrambling to buckle themselves in before the Falcon jumped to lightspeed. Notice the top edge of the flap greeblie as well as a light spot on the belt between the pouch connections where there could be a possible hole in the belt.

[img]

That concludes Part 2. Please let me know what you think.

Paul ˘┐˘

[/img]
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 12, 2013 8:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

again, wow Shocked

Yea, complete redesign......

These are great detail shots for sure. Now we just have to figure out the pouch. I'm starting to wonder if it was really functional at all or just there for decoration. It also looks like they just re-used the d-rings for the pouch to connect to the belt, I know my old design I used little rectangle rings, clearly that was wrong Razz

Great Stuff Paul!

Dave
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Volund Starfire (Jason Ellenburg)
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 12, 2013 9:18 pm    Post subject: Re: ANH Ben Kenobi Belt pictures Part 2 Reply with quote

It is a functional pouch and a decoration at the same time. Those pictures
sealed it for me as to what it is, specifically. The attachment style is usually
seen with a bit of a chain around a belt or a similar ring system ON A KILT!

That's right, boys and girls. What you are looking at there is a Royal Military
Sporran worn as part of the field uniform circa WWII. Typically, it was used
to keep a weapons maintenance kit in. That greeblie on the front is what
holds the tassels for the flap, but they were removed, leaving only the
leather piece on the front.

In other words, it is a moon-shape box purse. In the fourth picture down,
you can see the edge of the flap.


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Ben Kenobi (Paul Moomey)
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 12, 2013 10:03 pm    Post subject: Re: ANH Ben Kenobi Belt pictures Part 2 Reply with quote

Volund Starfire wrote:

That's right, boys and girls. What you are looking at there is a Royal Military
Sporran worn as part of the field uniform circa WWII. Typically, it was used
to keep a weapons maintenance kit in. That greeblie on the front is what
holds the tassels for the flap, but they were removed, leaving only the
leather piece on the front.

In other words, it is a moon-shape box purse. In the fourth picture down,
you can see the edge of the flap.



I did a quick Google search of WWII military sporrans. Ben's pouch flap is the same size as the entire pouch as several of the pics show and the body of the pouch is a half moon where the sporrans I found are much bigger and deeper.

[img]

This next one is as close as I could find to Ben's pouch and the flap is still smaller than the body of the pouch. Notice the ring attachments.

[img]

I do agree that Ben's pouch was probably designed with the sporran in mind. Unfortunately I cannot produce pics that actually demonstrate that Ben's pouch is functional. I do believe we can create a functional design that is still thin enough to not compromise the overall belt design. Maybe something no thicker than 1 inch with a flap that covers the entire front of the pouch with a greeblie.

I wish we could see the original costume again to research this issue. Is it on display anywhere? Or could someone be contacted at the Star Wars archives where the costume may be residing??

Paul ˘┐˘
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Ben Kenobi (Paul Moomey)
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 12, 2013 11:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

lgtsbr wrote:
again, wow Shocked

I know my old design I used little rectangle rings, clearly that was wrong Razz


Dave


I was going to mention that the rings looked like they were round rather than rectangular but wanted to see if you would pick up on that. Good to hear you and I think alike on that issue.

Paul ˘┐˘
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lgtsbr ()



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PostPosted: Wed Jun 12, 2013 11:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

pmoomey wrote:

I was going to mention that the rings looked like they were round rather than rectangular but wanted to see if you would pick up on that. Good to hear you and I think alike on that issue.

Paul ˘┐˘


HA! I'd say great minds think alike but my old mind.....not so great anymore Razz

You bring up a interesting point though, are the rings round or d-rings? I could see both being used easily.....

Jason, I think you may be on to something there.......At least it gives us a direction to move toward as far as design goes. It is still a thin pouch, thats for sure.

Paul, I know I mentioned this to you via PM but it is worth mentioning here. I'm wondering if the rivets are actually copper instead of brass. To my knowledge both will give that greenish tint we see in the MoM pic......
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 17, 2013 9:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've been hunting high and low to try to find something remotely close, no dice. I really think we are just going to have to pattern and make the thing from scratch.......

Dave
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Ben Kenobi (Paul Moomey)
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 18, 2013 5:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think you are right on designing it from scratch. I have also been looking for something close but no luck. I did find a great WWII optics pouch that really matches the "look" of the overall belt. Wish this was what they had used. It even has extra studs and greeblies.

[img]

[/img]

[img]

Paul ˘┐˘[/img]
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 18, 2013 6:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't think it is that thick though.......is it?

I've was thinking before any of this info came to light that if/when I did a redesign I was going to use a softer leather, maybe even a suede, and make it expandable somehow.......I don't know at this point which way to go.......

That pouch, I think, is going to be the hardest part to duplicate, everything else is do-able

Dave
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Ben Kenobi (Paul Moomey)
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 19, 2013 5:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

lgtsbr wrote:
I don't think it is that thick though.......is it?

I've was thinking before any of this info came to light that if/when I did a redesign I was going to use a softer leather, maybe even a suede, and make it expandable somehow.......I don't know at this point which way to go.......
Dave


No the ANH pouch isn't that thick. I wasn't suggesting the ANH pouch should be like the one I found - just that it is a pretty neat looking pouch.

In all the pics I have the ANH pouch looks like it is made of the same type of leather as the rest of the belt. Not suede. Personally I think your current design is pretty close. My suggestion would be the following changes to your current pouch:

Separate the front and back parts of the pouch and insert a soft piece of leather in between the two such that it is sewn with a curve toward the inside of the pouch to keep the outer lines of the pouch clean. I don't believe the pouch should be any wider overall than 1/2 to 3/4 an inch not counting the flap that folds over the front of the pouch. That means the soft leather would be about 1 1/2 to 1 3/4 inches wide to allow for about 1/2 inch on either side for the stitching to the front and back of the pouch (may need to be hand stitched).

Extend the back piece of the pouch such that it can now cover the entire pouch when folded over the front piece. Your current design kind of squares this front flap off at the bottom - it needs to be flush with the front piece all the way to the bottom of the pouch. I see no space at the bottom of the flap that would expose any stitching on the pouch.

Of course the studs that are used for the connectors to the belt are now only going to be attached to the back piece of the pouch and not go through both the front and back as in your current design.

You currently use square "rings" on the connectors. These need to be either "O" or "D" rings. Some pictures lean to "O" and others look like "D", but I am leaning toward "D" rings to be consistent with the "D" ring on the left side of the belt.

The connectors to the belt at least need part of it on the outside of the belt not all between the belt and the body. The question then becomes - are both pieces of the connector on the outside or is one side outside and one underneath. Kind of looks to me like it is one outside and one under the belt, but wouldn't bet my life on it.

Of course you need to add the greeblie to the front flap, but here is the question - how does the front flap now connect to the front of the pouch? Your current design has two studs attached to the front of the pouch that protrude through two holes in the flap securing it in place. Now the greeblie is in the way. One picture (where Ben is hurrying to sit down before the Falcon jumps to lightspeed) shows the greeblie bulging in the middle. One possibility would be to attach the greeblie such that it has a built in bulge that would leave enough room for a single hole for a stud centered underneath the greeblie that would be used to attach the flap to the front of the pouch yet still be hidden by the greeblie. That design might be a bit awkward to actually close the flap. OR you could use a single magnetic latch or snap that would be hidden by the greeblie. I lean towards a snap under the greeblie. OR the two attachments for the greeblie are really snaps that serve a dual purpose of holding the greeblie in place as well as securing the flap to the pouch (do the snaps come such that they would go through two layers of leather?).

What do you think?

Paul ˘┐˘
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 19, 2013 5:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

lgtsbr wrote:

Paul, I know I mentioned this to you via PM but it is worth mentioning here. I'm wondering if the rivets are actually copper instead of brass. To my knowledge both will give that greenish tint we see in the MoM pic......


Do they actually make copper rivets?? I think brass is just fine.

Paul ˘┐˘
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 19, 2013 2:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yup, my supplier sells copper rivets, but you may be right that it is most likely brass. I normally use my standard screw back rivets at the buckle, I think we will need to change that as the heads may be too big.

your design sounds good. I'm thinking for the softer leather of either going with a real thin 1 oz to 2 oz piece or, which might be better, going with a upholstery or garment leather, this way it is soft and flexible. I have no doubt we/I will have to hand sew this together.

I think the attachment straps will need to move in more. My old design had them spaced out toward the edge, if we are going to sew in the softer leather then we will most likely need to move those straps in a bit, no biggie.

I think the d-ring connectors on the belt are set up the same way as the Luke ANH belt, it loops through the d-ring with 1 piece of leather on either side of the belt. So we have to get the length AND shape right for the outside of the belt.

We will need to pattern that front flap greeblie, no doubt there. I can get snaps with a longer shank on them, so going through multiple pieces of leather is doable. I just checked in my suppliers catalog, I can get snaps in Brass and Antique Brass, so we have options besides silver if you think we should match the hardware.

As far as the d-rings themselves. I usually get the welded d-rings however they are only available in Silver. If we want those in Brass I would have to get a solid cast piece but they look to be a little different shape. I can get a few in on my next order and we can play with that if you want.

Good Stuff!

Dave
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 28, 2013 6:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

lgtsbr wrote:
Yup, my supplier sells copper rivets, but you may be right that it is most likely brass. I normally use my standard screw back rivets at the buckle, I think we will need to change that as the heads may be too big.


I think the antique brass rivets are fine for the belt. One thing I did not notice is rivets to attach the buckle - there don't appear to be any on the movie belt. I don't even see any stitching. How do you think the buckle is attached to the belt?? Maybe the connectors or stitching to connect the belt is covered by the buckle which would mean the loop to connect the belt to the buckle is possibly farther away from the edge of the buckle. Or maybe the connection is completed with stitching that is very close to the loop of the buckle so it can't be seen. Did you have your buckles manufactured for you?

lgtsbr wrote:
your design sounds good. I'm thinking for the softer leather of either going with a real thin 1 oz to 2 oz piece or, which might be better, going with a upholstery or garment leather, this way it is soft and flexible. I have no doubt we/I will have to hand sew this together.


I wouldn't go with too light on the thickness of the leather. It does need to maintain a little stiffness because I don't see any wrinkling in the surface of the pouch in any of the pictures. If the leather is too thin or flexible you will start to get creases or wrinkles in it. Both the front of the pouch and the back (since it continues over for the front flap) need to be somewhat stiff but the leather that connects them could be much more flexible and should be so it can expand more easily to make it functional.

lgtsbr wrote:
I think the attachment straps will need to move in more. My old design had them spaced out toward the edge, if we are going to sew in the softer leather then we will most likely need to move those straps in a bit, no biggie.


You may not have to move them much. The hole for the rivet can be very close to the stitching such that the leather connector actually overlaps the stitching to keep it as close to the edge of the pouch as possible. All the pics suggest the connector leather is right there on the edge of the pouch. You can look at the pictures but I think the width of your current pouch is pretty close to correct.

lgtsbr wrote:
I think the d-ring connectors on the belt are set up the same way as the Luke ANH belt, it loops through the d-ring with 1 piece of leather on either side of the belt. So we have to get the length AND shape right for the outside of the belt.


Agreed

lgtsbr wrote:
We will need to pattern that front flap greeblie, no doubt there. I can get snaps with a longer shank on them, so going through multiple pieces of leather is doable. I just checked in my suppliers catalog, I can get snaps in Brass and Antique Brass, so we have options besides silver if you think we should match the hardware.


As I said I think the antique brass is the best fit for the look of the belt. Since there are longer shank snaps available it sounds like the connectors on the pouch greeblie should be snaps that connect the flap to the front face of the pouch. Keep in mind the picture that shows the greeblie has a little space in the middle between the connectors and the pouch flap. Almost like it has been used to hang something from it and the leather has stretched away from the front flap.

lgtsbr wrote:
As far as the d-rings themselves. I usually get the welded d-rings however they are only available in Silver. If we want those in Brass I would have to get a solid cast piece but they look to be a little different shape. I can get a few in on my next order and we can play with that if you want.


Yea - they need to match the rest of the hardware and be antique brass color.

Paul ˘┐˘
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 28, 2013 9:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

if you look at the MoM pics you can see the rivets to the buckle. If we have the buckle made then we can control where the loop is placed, it could be farther toward the center of the buckle to hide those, if we go with an existing buckle such as the Tandy Blank then there really isn't a whole lot of room to hide those.

I think we should take a page from the Luke ANH belt and match those style of rivets for the buckle, I don't remember what they are called, I will check into them though.

I've just had my first experience with Cold Welding with the Luke ESB/ROTJ buckles, so we can always play with buckle designs Wink

Dave
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Ben Kenobi (Paul Moomey)
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 28, 2013 10:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You are right - I missed those rivets.. They are so close to the buckle. Then we just need to decide what rivets to use and put them closer to the buckle but not completely hide them.

Paul
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