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New Generic Jedi Costume Standards, June 1, 2013
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SithariRog (Roger Allen)
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 02, 2013 2:52 am    Post subject: New Generic Jedi Costume Standards, June 1, 2013 Reply with quote

Greetings Fellow Jedi!



”Confer upon you ALL the rank of Jedi, the Council does.”

June 1, 2013 marks another update to the Generic Jedi Costume Standards (GJCS).

Very little of the actual GJCS have changed. We have, however, clarified many points of discussion and debate and have tried to answer many questions that have crept up since the last update. Please consider and understand the following:

-Costume Standards should be considered a set of guidelines which a costumer uses to create their costume AND should serve as a check list for the Legion Costume Judges to use as they evaluate a costume. We felt that, since the Legion Costume Judges evaluate costume applications with a greater attention to detail than is often expressed in the costume standards, we should take a new approach in updating our costume standards by offering more detail and/or information to our costumers. In other words, we felt it was not fair to the costumer to judge a costume by parameters that were not expressed in the costume standards.

-With this said, during this latest update (and among other points of clarification), we have offered some suggested lengths, widths, heights, etc. in order to give our Jedi costumers some insight into what the LCJs are looking for in a Generic Jedi costume. These measurements should be considered not set in stone. Some level of common sense must be used by both the costumer and the LCJs when making and judging a costume, respectively. Costumes must fit the wearer (and be proportional to the costumer’s body type). Therefore, some people’s measurements may fall outside the guidelines given.

The Jedi standards can be viewed here and are effective immediately. Good creating, and May the Force Be With You!
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Last edited by SithariRog (Roger Allen) on Mon Jul 08, 2013 1:43 am; edited 1 time in total
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Granny-Wan (Marie Cannon)
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 02, 2013 4:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Excellent work, Roger! Thank you for this.
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KrisAntilles (Amanda Burk)
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 02, 2013 1:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
2. Tabards: must extend at least to or past the bottom hem of the OT on the front and, on the back may end under the obi or may extend to (or past) the bottom hem of the OT.


So now with the new rules my tabards are no longer acceptable on this one? Crying or Very sad Here I was very nearly done except for a few teaks and making the belt..... I'm afraid if I made the tabards on the back to the bottom hem or past, they'll get stepped on or caught on things being so long. I guess I could end them at the obi to get it accepted, but I think that would look awful, I like the contrast color of the tabards down the back.....

http://www.rebellegion.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=45747&start=30




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PostPosted: Sun Jun 02, 2013 1:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
* Style A: Similar to Prequel Jedi belts: Wide leather main (inner, against the Obi) belt with a thinner secondary belt (outer) on top of the main belt, and a movie-style buckle on the secondary belt.


One more question, since I was going to start cutting leather for my belt today, is this still an acceptable buckle or not?



If not, then can I use the belt I made for my other jedi that was just accepted? Or is this buckle no longer acceptable either?



Or do I need to find a buckle like one of the movie buckles to use for this new jedi?

Sorry, just trying to make sure I'm still on the right track with the rules change before I go any further with this costume.
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SithariRog (Roger Allen)
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 02, 2013 2:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This is one of those instances where some level of common sense must be used when designing a costume. While the standards say...

Tabards: must extend at least to or past the bottom hem of the OT on the front and, on the back may end under the obi or may extend to (or past) the bottom hem of the OT.

The main point of wording the tabard length in this manner was because we get a LOT of front tabards that fall between the obi and the bottom hem of the outer tunic...which looks just plain wrong. This is, in my opinion, true on the back to.

But...in your case, the outer tunic skirt is more like a true skirt. In this case, the tabards in the back for your costume are, in my opinion, perfectly placed. So, you don't have to change anything. If there's an issue in the judging (and there shouldn't be, because I've already stated the "common sense" thought), let me know and I'll handle it.

The other thing is....we simply can't list every possible combination in a costume standard...because, if we did, a single costume standard would be volumes Wink

As for your buckle...looks fine to me. It's "unique", in that it is unusual. I have one that is similar on one of my Jedi costumes.

So...no worries. Looking forward to you submitting this costume. It looks GREAT!
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KrisAntilles (Amanda Burk)
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 02, 2013 3:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Phew! Thank Roger! I know my OT is a little "weird" in this case with the high/low combination. Funny thing is, at the very beginning I had the mockup tabards in the back extending to the skirt hem. And when I tried a "cool low action pose" to see how things flowed before I made the final tabards, I actually did manage step on one of the back tabards getting up and nearly landed on my rear. Razz Not so jedi like! So they got shortened! lol!

I totally agree having front tabards above the hem line looks wrong. And I think the standards update looks good and will help with the costumes submitted. I just wanted to make sure I was still ok within the new standards.

And yes, definitely too long to list all possible combinations in the standards.

I wonder though....since we have this for the OT:

Quote:
c. OTs skirt length may be variable and may extend to the floor, but should hang at least to the tips of the fingers when the arms are held down at the side. Other references for minimal OT skirt length would be to extend to mid-thigh or to cover the buttocks. Some common sense should be used for costumers who are very tall or very short. The seam between the main body of the OT and its attached skirt is hidden by the obi.


Which says you can have a floor length skirt on the OT itself. Granted, I don't think we see that very often, Agen Kolar is the only one from the movies that comes to mind at the moment. But I think there was a recent WIP thread that mentioned a possible floor length OT, I wonder if maybe something should be added to the tabards part:

Quote:
2. Tabards: must extend at least to or past the bottom hem of the OT on the front and, on the back may end under the obi or may extend to (or past) the bottom hem of the OT.


That if the OT skirt hem is say ankle/floor length, then the tabard length should be maybe something like knee length or longer (with the option of ending at the obi on the back)? Or something like that.

Just thinking out loud/tossing ideas! Like I said, I don't think we see much in the way of ankle or floor length OTs.
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SithariRog (Roger Allen)
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 02, 2013 7:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Clarifying Tabard Length:

2. Tabards: must extend at least to or past the bottom hem of the OT on the front and, on the back may end under the obi or may extend to (or past) the bottom hem of the OT. This guideline is obviously for the more traditional length OTs. OTs that are longer (past the knee or to the floor OR where a full length skirt is worn), the tabard length would be more variable.

Again common sense must be used when designing tabard length (with respect to OT or skirt length). Basically, the idea with the Generic Jedi costume standards is to help our costumers create a Jedi costume that readily blends with the Prequel Jedi costumes (while also allowing designs that incorporate the "New Republic" Jedi designs as well as those from the EU (within reason).

The Jedi costume is one of only a VERY few in the Rebel Legion that allows for some creativity in design. The problem is, people SERIOUSLY try to find loop holes in the costume standards in order to justify their Jedi costume design...and some push the limits of the costume standards to a point where their costume does not resemble the classic look of the Jedi and are (in the opinion of many) only recognizable as Jedi if they're holding a lightsaber.

Again, the Jedi LCJs have the final opinion on any Jedi costume, regardless of the posted costume standards. This isn't to say that the LCJs will stray from these costume standards, but will interpret them (hopefully) for the greater good of the Rebel Legion (in representing the Star Wars Franchise). I may be biased in my opinion, but I feel the Jedi LCJs are among the best of the Rebel Legion, and strive to be fair in their judging.
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Volund Starfire (Jason Ellenburg)
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 02, 2013 9:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

SithariRog wrote:
This isn't to say that the LCJs will stray from these costume standards, but will interpret them (hopefully) for the greater good of the Rebel Legion (in representing the Star Wars Franchise).
So, the costume standards do not really matter and it is all up to the LCJs to determine who is let into the Rebel Legion as a Jedi? Would not the tightening of the standards make it stricter for them to judge costumes and not, as you state, grant them greater leeway into approving costumes they feel look better than others?

Might I ask why things were changed to favor movie Prequel Jedi as opposed to the Comic Jedi, New Republic Jedi, and pre-Prequel Jedi? You can say that they are more recognizable, but nowhere in the Rebel Legion Charter does it state that you must be recognizable. Even then, I have been called Han Solo in my RFT, have seen TIE pilots called Darth Vader, and have seen a female Mara Jade (green dress) called Obi-Wan.
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rogue9607 (Nick)
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 03, 2013 2:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thank you for putting this together Roger! (and all of the others that contributed)

I don't really see this as a change to the standard at all, but more as clarification for what the judges are looking for. At the end of the day, we have "costume judges" that give their opinions on whether or not a costume is a suitable representation of a generic Jedi in the Star Wars universe. The more insight available into that process, the better equipped individuals will be to make approvable costumes.

This category is already very accessible to the novice, and I believe this extra guidance serves well to point them in the right direction. For the experienced costumer, the notion that this is guidance, rather than rule, provides additional opportunities for creativity. I don't know of any examples (though I certainly haven't seen everything) where the LCJs rejected something that was well made and representative of a Jedi because it didn't meet a literal reading of a standard. Even under the previous standards, there was still leeway. The revisions just did a better job spelling out the specifics.

Would it be correct to think that the generic standard is being directed more towards what we've seen on screen, while not completely excluding older/newer influences from other sources? If someone really wants to do a Jedi from TOR, comics, etc that would have elements that deviate from generic, then they just need to do the costume accurately and it potentially becomes a new standard outside of generic, right?

If a standard doesn't exist, it doesn't mean that it can't be done, just that it hasn't been done.

Thanks again for all the hard work that went into this, as well as the continued efforts of not only judging costumes, but working with the costumers to improve them if needed.
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RavenApprentice (Angel Martinez)
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 03, 2013 3:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jason are you planning on making a Jedi costume? or more than one?

Volund Starfire wrote:
SithariRog wrote:
This isn't to say that the LCJs will stray from these costume standards, but will interpret them (hopefully) for the greater good of the Rebel Legion (in representing the Star Wars Franchise).
So, the costume standards do not really matter and it is all up to the LCJs to determine who is let into the Rebel Legion as a Jedi? Would not the tightening of the standards make it stricter for them to judge costumes and not, as you state, grant them greater leeway into approving costumes they feel look better than others?

Might I ask why things were changed to favor movie Prequel Jedi as opposed to the Comic Jedi, New Republic Jedi, and pre-Prequel Jedi? You can say that they are more recognizable, but nowhere in the Rebel Legion Charter does it state that you must be recognizable. Even then, I have been called Han Solo in my RFT, have seen TIE pilots called Darth Vader, and have seen a female Mara Jade (green dress) called Obi-Wan.

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Volund Starfire (Jason Ellenburg)
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 03, 2013 4:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

RavenApprentice wrote:
Jason are you planning on making a Jedi costume? or more than one?
I already tried. I wrote a full WIP thread that documented the process and put up final pictures asking for comments before Celebration VI. At Celebration VI, I was told to submit by multiple LCJs, so I did in October. I didn't hear anything for four months, then found out that I was denied without anything being said to me.

It wasn't until later that I was told (in PMs), that hakama were going to be disallowed. I am hoping that is not why my costume was ignored/denied, but I just don't know. It was extremely frustrating. Below is a link to the WIP thread so you know what I posted and the replies that I had.

Volund Starfire, Jedi Master
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 03, 2013 5:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wow! The updated standards seem to have been heavily thought through and one can tell the love and thoughtfulness that have gone into each detail that has been expressed! It is apparent that an attempt to further explains a lot of the Legion Costume Judges decisions for potential Jedi costumers. Accuracy is crucial in all member costumes and is why Lucasfilm recognizes Rebel Legion as one of their preferred costume clubs and the more detailed standards are create a higher quality presence of our members worldwide.

Being said, it seems that the category with recent revisions has outgrown its current name. What this category now describes is a very specific form of 'Prequel Jedi,' the term no longer a “Generic” as the heading states. Jedi have been depicted in various robes and had various accessories throughout the Star Wars timeline (other than Episodes 1-2-3 and Clone Wars non-armored) with periodic renderings of Jedi in robes echoing the Prequels. Even then the recent additions to the costume standards seem to all point to a specific tunic combo type and set in the Prequels (Obi-Wan, Anakin, Mace, Bultar Swan, Sar Labooda, ect) and not to various Jedi clothing throughout Star Wars Cannon Media; a true cross-section of average background (Generic) Cannon Jedi though the ages. The term Generic Jedi at this point is misleading and is a misnomer. Therefore an unsolicited critique by a KJO temple master would be to switch the title of the costume category in addition to the updates.

With all the positive hopes and intentions that I would assume has gone into these recent updates, I and some of the local Jedi/potential Jedi that I represent from Woshyr Temple also have some concerns with some of the updated standards. I have read through the standards and some of the legitimate concerns about them. I also realize that any growing and quality control process is done with, as another member put it, “great gnashing of teeth.” However some members feel that so many seemingly arbitrary lines are drawn (no hakama though a box pleated skirt with no inseam is permissible, only the ‘ladies razor” communicator and no other Star Wars Jedi used communicator, ect) along with others that have been mainly expressed in another thread. It then occurs to me; why even have a ‘Generic Jedi’ or non-face character category. There is no set uniform really for the Jedi like there is for Rebel Pilots, Imperial Crewman, ect. Even in Episode 1-3, each Jedi was different; different hems lengths on cloaks, different sleeve widths, different color combinations, different accessories that all hint to being a Jedi but one could argue it was a cleaned up Tatoine Resident that didn’t have to work on a moisture farm (last part written as an ironic joke of course Smile Back to serious contemplation though…) It has been said by some that there really is no such thing as a “Generic” Jedi anyway; as each Jedi technically has a name and story in the movies and media. So if the clear line was drawn for only Star Wars Media appearing Jedi costumes are acceptable (and just those costumes of media appearing Jedi created by members as true to the reference and/or CLRs as possible), a new ruckus from RL general membership would form but a lot of the arbitrary, wavy lines in the sand, grey areas would be cleared up. This is an extreme measure and one that would anger a lot of the current membership and potential that are working on Jedi; however to eliminate a lot of drama, stress, and time for the Costume Judges this would be a simpler solution. Not one I would like to see, or a popular one, but could understand happening for clarity’s sake.

Regardless if some of my and my temple’s ‘meditations’ on new CLRs are modified or not I would like to thank the Costume Judges for all the time and energy that they do put into making Rebel Legion as top notch as possible. It is tough and time consuming to make concise decisions on costumes with the number of members worldwide that RL has. I would hope that this attempt to clean up the CLRs was done to also help give time to Legion Costume Judges judging Jedi to peruse WIP threads more offering positive constructive feedback to those in the process of building. It has become a bit of a saying that it is easier to be denied membership after sinking money into a costume than it is to get positive constructive feedback on a WIP. Other RL members looking at the WIP try to assist by saying it looks good, the costume is then submitted for approval and sent back just saying ‘Denied’ with minimal explanations is frustrating and heartbreaking. It has been hard to pick potential members back up from this and frustrates current members, generally causing them to walk away. Clear CLR’s are a first step, but judges creating shifts in perusing the WIPS and maybe a edited transcript of what the judges said while looking over a costume (easy since I would assume most all of it is done in a typing format over the internet… I could be wrong though) with a denial would be more appropriate? Most denied applicants would love to know how they can get their costume up to standard and an insight into the judges thought process on their costume would give them a clear cut direction. Personally nothing make me more frustrated/angry than one to four word answers to questions or applications, and I have talked to many who feel the same way. Just observations to suggest to Judges. Smile

Again I cannot ignore the energy that has gone into this to clarify standards and to improve the Jedi as a whole. Most of the concerns that have been voiced have been to bring up different ideas that may or may not have been previously thought of and suggest some further clarifications. I think a dialog is important and in no way should be seen or conducted as an attack. I thank everyone for posting and everyone’s hard work. I might have more to say... As I still feel I haven't covered all my and members that have spoken to me's thoughts so I might be posting another 'book' soon.
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Last edited by MEEKOtheBUZZSAW () on Mon Jun 03, 2013 5:35 pm; edited 2 times in total
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SithariRog (Roger Allen)
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 03, 2013 5:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Volund Starfire wrote:
So, the costume standards do not really matter and it is all up to the LCJs to determine who is let into the Rebel Legion as a Jedi? Would not the tightening of the standards make it stricter for them to judge costumes and not, as you state, grant them greater leeway into approving costumes they feel look better than others?


Honestly, I take offense to you asking this question. If you care to have a look at the majority of the Costume standards, most of them have the clause where the LCJs have the “final” say with regards to a costume. The phrasing asks our costumers to contact an LCJ if they have any question regarding fabrics, colors and parts…and goes as far to provide a link to see who the LCJs are at any given point in history. This system has been in place since before I joined the Rebel Legion in 2008. I don’t see the purpose of complaining about this system, especially in this thread. If you want to challenge this policy, bring it up in the appropriate place.

The Rebel Legion LCJs often judge by committee, that is, several experts in a given detachment offer their opinion with regards to the costume application. We don’t judge as a single person (as do other Star Wars costuming groups). This way, the costumer has the fairest chance of receiving a valid ruling on their costume.

Volund Starfire wrote:
Might I ask why things were changed to favor movie Prequel Jedi as opposed to the Comic Jedi, New Republic Jedi, and pre-Prequel Jedi? You can say that they are more recognizable, but nowhere in the Rebel Legion Charter does it state that you must be recognizable. Even then, I have been called Han Solo in my RFT, have seen TIE pilots called Darth Vader, and have seen a female Mara Jade (green dress) called Obi-Wan.


The fact that the costumes of the Rebel Legion should be recognizable as belonging to the Star Wars genre is implied. And your argument that TIE fighters are referred to as Darth Vader (or being called Han Solo when dressed in a RFT costume) is invalid in supporting having a set of Jedi costuming standards that allows for an “anything goes approach” to costume design.

And the latest update to the GJCS were not an attempt to favor Prequel Movie Jedi. The past merging of the Old and New Republic Jedi costume standards were an attempt to have an all-around or general set of standards that incorporate Old Republic, New Republic, and the Expanded Universe Jedi costumes. I think that Costume Standards Committee did a good job of merging these costumes standards. AND this latest update merely clarifies some questions that have crept up over the past couple of years. There was very little true change.

And again, I don’t know how many times, both in public posts and private messages I can apologize for your experiences in applying to the Rebel Legion with a Jedi costume that was deined. You’ve said your peace and things have been resolved as best as possible. I invite you to apply again.

Finally, change is a part of life. Anyone can become a member of the Costume Standards Committee or a Legion Costume Judge. Anyone can also run for the elected offices of Legion Membership Officer and Detachment Commanding Officers. If you want to have a real chance of being involved in making the changes you want to the Jedi Costume Standards, I would invite you to get involved and become an active member of the national leadership so that you can be proactive in making changes happen.

This thread is seriously being dragged off track. I ask that the discussion in this thread be brought back inline with it's intent.
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Last edited by SithariRog (Roger Allen) on Mon Jun 03, 2013 5:33 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 03, 2013 5:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

so from october to June you didnt try for approval?


Volund Starfire wrote:
RavenApprentice wrote:
Jason are you planning on making a Jedi costume? or more than one?
I already tried. I wrote a full WIP thread that documented the process and put up final pictures asking for comments before Celebration VI. At Celebration VI, I was told to submit by multiple LCJs, so I did in October. I didn't hear anything for four months, then found out that I was denied without anything being said to me.

It wasn't until later that I was told (in PMs), that hakama were going to be disallowed. I am hoping that is not why my costume was ignored/denied, but I just don't know. It was extremely frustrating. Below is a link to the WIP thread so you know what I posted and the replies that I had.

Volund Starfire, Jedi Master

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 03, 2013 10:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

SithariRog wrote:
The fact that the costumes of the Rebel Legion should be recognizable as belonging to the Star Wars genre is implied. And your argument that TIE fighters are referred to as Darth Vader (or being called Han Solo when dressed in a RFT costume) is invalid in supporting having a set of Jedi costuming standards that allows for an “anything goes approach” to costume design.
Recognizable by whom? By the average fan who can’t tell the difference between a Mara Jade and Obi-Wan Kenobi? If we were to make only costumes that would be recognizable by the Average person, we would have Chewbacca, Han, Leia, Luke, Anakin, and Obi-Wan. Nowhere in the Charter, the document that we formed with, is a costume’s recognition determined on whether it is approved. The wording is that it must be a Star Wars costume.

Quote:
And the latest update to the GJCS were not an attempt to favor Prequel Movie Jedi. The past merging of the Old and New Republic Jedi costume standards were an attempt to have an all-around or general set of standards that incorporate Old Republic, New Republic, and the Expanded Universe Jedi costumes. I think that Costume Standards Committee did a good job of merging these costumes standards. AND this latest update merely clarifies some questions that have crept up over the past couple of years. There was very little true change.
Then, if you will, tell me how the Generic Jedi Costume Standards judge any of the following New Republic, Legacy, pre-Prequel, and Dawn of the Jedi costumes.

The top two pictures are from the Knights of the Old Republic comic series. The colors are very bright and most do not have tabards, two even have bare arms with gauntlets.

The second picture down is a screenshot from the game Jedi Knight: Jedi Academy. In this game, you can create a character with a series of four or five different tops and bottoms, depending on your race. Each of the tops and bottoms are not customizable. The screenshot shows the various “generic” costumes beside the player character and Kyle Katarn. Please note the thigh high boots and bare arms.

The bottom left picture are four Jedi from the Legacy comics. Please notice the bare arms and lack of tabards.

The bottom right picture is from the Dawn of the Jedi comics. Both the person on the left and right are “good guys,” but the guy on the left is wearing all black, a hoodless cape, and a katiginu.

For that very reason, I believe that the Generic Jedi Costume Standards are a good guideline (though rather strict and unnecessarily long compared to what they were previously) for Prequel Jedi. However, they do not cover the Legacy, New Republic, Clone Wars, Knights of the Old Republic, or Dawn of the Jedi costumes that we will be looking at in the foreseeable future.

The Obi-Wan Kenobi costume standards offer six different standards within the one category, and those do not even include the two versions of his TCW costume or the disguise he wore in a couple of episodes. Why can we not make a separate version of the standards for each of the eras of the Star Wars Universe?

Dawn of the Jedi (Before Tales of the Jedi)
Knights of the Old Republic (Tales of the Jedi to the Ruusan Reformation)
Old Republic (Ruusan Reformation to Order 66—to include TCW)
New Republic (Order 66 to Legacy—to include the upcoming new movies)
Legacy (Legacy comics and beyond)

This would be a much more logical way of judging Jedi costumes as each of the five eras have different looks that would require conflicting standards to make them all-inclusive.
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