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DRESS UNIFORM STANDARD - DISCUSSION
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Granny-Wan (Marie Cannon)
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 12, 2013 6:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

WedgeAntilles wrote:


I also feel that the boot standards may be over descriptive as well. Lets not worry so much about heel sizes, does it really need to be specified like that?



Domino wrote:

Boots vs. Shoes : I am also going with boots, that is the depiction in the books, I dont think there needs to be a differentiation between heeled or flat. The question here is do we allow pilot boots or do we specify riding/officer boots.



Please, please. please designate a maximum heel height!! I saw a Rebel Fleet Trooper with 3 inch heels. Very tacky, and not at all screen accurate. (people were staring).

If we don't specify, someone will do it and say "it's not in the standards."


Also, I'm not sure we should prefer the body stocking over pants... it would be hard to enforce a "look in the mirror, especially at your backside, before you leave the house" rule. Rolling Eyes
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 12, 2013 7:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Granny-Wan is right no high heel boots ... it look maybe pretty'r, but indeed you don't see high heel boots in the comics with any dress uniform rebel or imperial or ...
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 12, 2013 8:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I was asked why I hadn't commented yet, so I thought I'd let you all know that I'm waiting a bit to see everyone's comments before I do.

I DO however have some definite opinions about a few of these items. Very Happy
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 12, 2013 8:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I didn't notice you didn't had commented :p
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 12, 2013 10:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Was figuring you'd let us hash is out a bit first Smile

I also agree that sash should be part of the jacket and not a separate item

In regards to boots / heels I agree that a heel height should be specified, was was thinking of my pilot boots when I said that. A minimal heel should be allowed for, 1 inch or smaller at best.
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 12, 2013 11:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'd have to side with the body stocking, as I think it would be hard to get a good match of material and color between the pants and shirt otherwise, but that's just my opinion.
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 13, 2013 5:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Added this to the first post …

EDIT >>> Here is the uniform description(s) from Aaron Allston's book "Star Wars: X-wing : Starfighters of Adumar."

Quote:
Pg. 39 - uniform is described as "The New Republic pilot's dress uniform wasn't too bad, but it had been designed in the depths of some government public relations department, without the input of those who would have to wear it, and many pilots just did not care for it."

Pg. 145 - "The New Republic officers' dress uniform – designed in committee long ago, [...] – was not the fashion disaster its wearers made it out to be. It started with a black sleeveless turtleneck body stocking and boots. Over it went a white jacket, a V-necked garment that fastened at about naval level and below. A broad red band ran along the left hem of the garment, up over the shoulder and at an angle down the back, with a rank designation in gold on the red band above the wearer's left breast. A gray belt over the jacket completed the outfit.

There were variations to the uniform, with Starfighter Command utilizing black body stockings and Fleet Command preferring gray for instance.
...

It was, ... the body stocking that most wearers objected to. Flight suits and pilot day uniforms were baggy things festooned with pockets. They were comfortable. The wearer could carry
his datapad, plus amusements and weapons for half a squad, in those deep pockets. The dress uniform body stocking had no pockets, and the jacket had only couple small ones - barely enough for datacards. Too, the body stocking revealed any extra weight its wearer might be carrying, a fact not at all appreciated by image-conscious officers … and pilots were the most image-conscious of all."

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 13, 2013 5:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Breaking this out from my next post so it doesn't get overlooked.

We have to decide WHAT to call this costume. Prior mentions of this costume by RL pilots in the past have included the following names ...

• Dress Uniform
• Rebel Pilot Dress Uniform
• Alliance Dress Uniform
• New Republic Dress Uniform
• Alliance/New Republic Dress Uniform

And even Aaron Allston (it's creator) gives us a couple title descriptions ...

• New Republic Pilot Dress Uniform
• New Republic Officers' Dress Uniform (Pilot variation & Fleet Officer variation)
• and by inference in his text - Starfighter Command Dress Uniform

Personally, I'm inclined to go with New Republic Pilot Dress Uniform since we only ever see ONE person [General Salm] in the Fleet Officer grey. And even at that, it's only in two panels in one issue, with him appearing in the Starfighter Command black in another issue.

Thoughts?
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 13, 2013 7:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Okay - here are my thoughts about all the discrepancies we have in the source materials. First, we have Mr. Allston's description, though while quite detailed, is a text description and therefore ineligible for use as a EU Costume source according to the recent changes to the RL Charter. However, by combining it with the varied comic illustrations I believe we can get a complete picture of the outfit. Here's where I stand on the wonky-bits ...

Sash/Facing Length
First off, I don't view it as a sash as I believe it's part of (i.e. attached to) the jacket. Why? Well in all the illustrations, we never see it "coming apart" or the tips flying/flaring up. Ergo, it's tacked down and is more like a facing. The varied artist (and comic colorists) had a field day with this one. Secondly, we have LOTS of length variations, even so far as on the same character in the same issue. Basically no quality control in the art. Therefore I'm going to side with having the "facing" extend all the way down to the hemline in both the front and back of the jacket.

Body Stocking vs. Shirt/Pants Combination
This one's easy. We have a text description of the body stocking and illustrations (see the Pilot Archive links in the first post, specifically some pics of Plourr) showing it. We also have illustrations that clearly show pants. Therefore, BOTH options should be allowed.

Stripe on pants
For me, this one's also easy. It only shows up in one issue, and only on two people not all the pilots, and NOT on them in every panel just a couple. The artist didn't commit to it across the board, so I'm against including it. Besides for me it makes it a little too "real world" - let Han keep the pants striping, we don't need it.

Epaulettes/Shoulder Marks
These come and go in the illustration pics we have with no consistency, except that they're in a lot of them. What we don't see really is the facing passing under the epaulettes. Hence I think that their more like shoulder marks (or shoulder boards) will all edges sewn down along the top shoulder seam. That's how I'd vote for them being included. I don't like the idea of them looking like modern epaulette flaps where something could be slid on.

Boots vs. Shoes
I'm a boot guy. I think we can allow both riding boots and "polished" pilot boots. If the boots are worn or dirty, then no way ... this is a Dress Uniform after all. As for heel or no - I say a maximum heel height of 1" is fine as that conforms to most pilot boots.

Ranks & Rank Badges
As James stated earlier, we really need to just pick one. So far the best description of the ranks I've seen is in the Star Wars Technical Manual. Here's a pic of the page:



The information here (combined with James' link to the Wiki article) would show that Starfighter Command (and Army) would use RED pips as the color was based on service branch, not rank. And speaking of ranks, the ones in the Tech Manual match the ranks described in the X-wing series books, so those might be the best to go off of. (They also match what we use in Hazard Squadron, with the exception that we added Flight Officer and Flight Cadet under Lieutenant.) Personally I'd love to see Starfighter Command adopt some kind of structure. We already Squadron Commanders, and past DCO's of the RLSC have used the titles of Colonel and General. One chain of command could be DCO as General, the DXO as Colonel, and all SCOs as Commanders. Most other pilots would be Major and below, though other pilots could have Commander rank as well or higher depending on their Squadron's rank structure... i.e. Hazard Squadron's is mission based.)

But I digress, I think perhaps a separate thread for that (and perhaps even for the rank badge) might be better. Hmmmm... I wonder if Damien could make rank badges like he makes the RL nametags? I'll have to email him. But again ... another digression.

So after all my ramblings, if I incorporate ALL my thoughts above (as well as the comments you've all made in the prior posts) into a new standard, it would look something like this.

Quote:
NEW REPUBLIC PILOT DRESS UNIFORM STANDARDS:

- Black Shirt. Mock turtleneck, sleeveless body stocking/unitard. OR a black sleeved/sleeveless mock turtleneck top along with black pants of the same/similar material of matching shade. Either variation is acceptable. Body Stocking/Unitard or shirt/pant combo should be well-fitted as befits a Military Dress Uniform.

- White Jacket. Long-sleeved, pattern-less jacket that closes and overlaps about an inch, starting just below the naval. Jacket does not have a collar and should fall below the hips. Jacket material should be be of medium weight or slightly thicker material such as twill or gabardine and should be opaque not sheer or translucent. The shoulders of the jacket should include a "shoulder mark" along the top shoulder seam which is stitched down on all sides. Jacket should include a red facing that runs down the front if the jacket from the left shoulder, and follows the edge of the left edge of the jacket front. This same red facing also runs down the back of the jacket to the hemline, extending from the left shoulder down and slowly curves to line up with the spine in the back. The red facing should be secured in place by being stitched to the jacket and should not exist as a separate piece. Width of the sash should range between ??? (I'm not sure of the width yet, but it should be set, not variable as the rank badges should be the same width.)

- Gray Belt. Medium to heavyweight pattern-less fabric belt that closes in the back with velcro or hook and eyes. NO buckles. Depending on your size the width of the belt should be anywhere between 3½ to 5½ inches. (Again, haven't made up my mind about sizing issues/details.) This belt should made of stiff enough material (medium weight or slightly thicker material such as twill or gabardine) and not be so lightweight as to bunch up or roll over significantly.

- Mid-calf black boots (Jack boots or engineer boots are acceptable. Leather pull-on style preferred with low heels. No laces. No ankle buckles (small buckle at top edge of boot allowable if covered by blousing). No non-black zippers. Any zipper closure must either be hidden or on the inside calf. No zippers on front or outside calf of boots. Boots should be flat or have a heel of less than 1 inch. Knee-high leather riding boots are also acceptable. ALL BOOTS should be in good repair and not worn-looking as befits a Military Dress Uniform. If the shirt/pants option is chosen, pants should be worn tucked into the tops of the boots and bloused.

Rank Bar Specs:

-Gold rank bar with rank and rebel bird attached to the red facing. Rank bar should be made of plastic resin, wood or any other light material. If too heavy will pull down on jacket via the sash.

-Total length is ??, total width is ?? inches, thickness is ?? inch. Rank bar should be the same width as the red facing stripe on the jacket. (Again, not sure of sizes)

- Rank bar consists of two rectangles, 1-1/2" long by 2-1/4" wide. Upper rectangle is contains round red Starfighter Command rank pips (from Lieutenant to General). The lower rectangle contains the Rebel "bird/flame" Insignia centered in red. Between the rectangles is an area, 1-5/15" by 1-5/8", divided horizontally into three (or more?) rows. These are for awards earned. (not sure how we'd specify this)

-Rank Bar should be worn on the red facing of the jacket on the upper left chest. It should be connected to the uniform by magnets sufficient to keep the badge attached, centered and stable.


So, what do you think?
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 13, 2013 7:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for the consolidation of our discussions and summary boss man, I like it. The name works (al of these entries are post RotJ) and the CR

Maybe Sash width should be keyed off of the rank bar as it looks to just be a little wider in most of the pics (yes mine is too wide).

I'd like to lock down the rank bar size and pip configuration (separate thread if needed) just to keep us all looking the same.
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 13, 2013 4:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
If too heavy will pull down on jacket via the sash


red facing

Quote:
divided horizontally into three (or more?) rows. These are for awards earned. (not sure how we'd specify this)


perhaps it could be like this... " divided horizontally into rows, starting with three and adding up one for each award earned" (now comes the question... how do we add awards?, should we make it standard by ranks? I mean a specific number of awards by each rank)
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 13, 2013 5:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote



This one looks cool, but i think to many rows.
This version is from the first series of the comics.





This version is from the thrid serie of the comics, and it returns like this in the Crimson Empire series:

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 13, 2013 6:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I talked to Damien (the guy who makes the RL Name Badges) to get some input and after hashing about some ideas, we came up with THIS. And, he is willing to make them for us (costs might run around $30 for using the same types of materials he uses for the name badges but with a thicker backing and two bar magnets). Here's what he sent me:



And, based on the size of the rank pips currently used on the RL Name Badges we came up with THESE dimensions, which would also solve the facing size question. We were thinking the facing stripe as 2.75" - 3" wide.



We went with the basic middle part because a majority of the illustrations use that design. For the illustrations that have extended bits (like your pic above), those are less common, and there's no rhyme or reason to what the bars are or how they're designed. In this case, I think conformity and unity should rule out.

I'm willing to pay for a sample one to be brought to WonderCon at the end of the month, but I'd like some kind of consensus on the specs before I spend the money.
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 13, 2013 8:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Okay, looks like Damian was either really inspired (or bored), because he's already whipped out a prototype!



I know it's a dark background, but you can see the black backing on there a bit. I've asked him to take another pic showing it in relative position on his chest so you guys can get an idea about proportion. Also note that the two large rectangles he made double thick so as to created some dimension to the piece.
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 13, 2013 8:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sold !!!

This one looks 10000000 times better than my design ... but problem is i'm from Belgium - Europe, will it also possible to ship it to Belgium ...

So long the total price stays for one stays under the $ 60, i will not have problem with customs.
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