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TKs have Centurion what do RFTs have?

 
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Endorscout64
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 29, 2013 3:01 am    Post subject: TKs have Centurion what do RFTs have? Reply with quote

This is a random thought, but seeing that the counterpart of the RFT has a class reserved for "as close to screen spot on" shouldn't we also have a class too?
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Rebel Doughboy (Kevin Skiera)
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 29, 2013 3:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

That be rad! I don't think we have the numbers but I'd fully support it since I am personally trying to do that myself.

However it would hard to find which pieces to be nit picky on.

I could only imagine there be a few things to do such-

-Jackboots (not motorcycle boots.)
-Navy workshirt (though it is hard to find nowadays, like jack boots.)
-ABS helmet instead of HIPS (plus acrylic visors, black, grey, no none at all.)

I am working on a 1/1 replica of a DH-17 instead of modding a toy blaster. I do plan on casting it and making rubber versions of like a hyperfirm.

Otherwise, I really support this, but there aren't the numbers for it to be too effective. Might convey too much "elitism." Since the RL is not the 501st, and RAID not the FISD, a lateral translation could be a bit of a problem.

Cool idea though!
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KA-513 ()
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 02, 2013 7:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Personally, I disagree with having the "levels of accuracy" system in general. I've heard way too many horror stories about it, and seen cases where new recruits with costumes that meet the CRLs are rejected because the GML was either not reading the CRLs properly, or only wanted "super-accurate" costumes in his Garrison.

If we were to do a ranking system, I'd rather see us do something like what the JRS does on the 501st side: honorary titles (with no practical purpose) based on the number of troops a given trooper does. They refer to it as their "Ace of Aces" program. 25 Troops (with at least one required to be in approved TI armour) gives the trooper "Ace" status, 100 troops is "Baron" status, 200 Troops is "Count", and we haven't gotten anything higher than that yet.

Anyways, if we were to adopt something like this, I would suggest that we have a new "rank" starting at 25, then each additional 25 troops would be a new "rank". Something like this:

25: Raider
50: Dragoon
75: Cuirassier
100:Centurion

And so on.
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GotWookiee (Matt Pfingsten)
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 02, 2013 10:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

KA-513 wrote:
Personally, I disagree with having the "levels of accuracy" system in general. I've heard way too many horror stories about it, and seen cases where new recruits with costumes that meet the CRLs are rejected because the GML was either not reading the CRLs properly, or only wanted "super-accurate" costumes in his Garrison.

Those are actually two separate issues. The different qualification levels are a relatively recent addition. The problem of GML's ignoring club standards has been around much longer. It's the main reason why we went with an costume-based LCJ system instead of a Base/Outpost system like the 501st.

Based purely on the anecdotes of various RL and 501st members, when CRL's are ignored in the 501st, it seems that allowing subpar costumes in is more common than the opposite, especially with crossover costumes like Clone Troopers and Tuskens. Though I must stress this is not based on real evidence or statistics; merely stories told by members.

Our LCJ's are overseen by the LMO, and each Base/Outpost has officers who are notified of new submissions, approvals, and rejections, providing an additional level of oversight. I do not think our system has resulted in any instances of the CRL's being ignored, though there a have been a few arguments over interpretation of those CRL's.

We actually do have an accuracy qualification system in the form of Formal/Informal requirements. Now, it should be mentioned that Formal/Informal has three different definitions depending on context, but many CRL's in our club have a list of Informal requirements (analogous to Level 1) for a costume, and an additional list of Formal requirements (analogous to Level 2).
I think the Formal/Informal terminology needs to be split into separate terms so you don't have to explain the context in order for others to understand what you are talking about, and I have been writing a charter amendment on and off for several months.
Originally, Formal/Informal was a kind of events dress code. A formal event was one in which you were in your "Sunday best," all clean and canon. Informal events would allow for things like base/outpost patches, holiday stuff like Santa hats, Leprechaun hats, etc.
Later on other concepts got shoe-horned into the Formal/Informal terminology. EU costumes without sufficient reference material are considered Informal, which is a kind of ranking of a costume's canonicity.
Then of course you have it's use as an accuracy qualification. Some costumes have the base Informal requirements and then have additional requirements for Formal status on top of that.

In short, I think an accuracy qualification system would work here because we already have one under a different name. Given the way the costume approval system is setup, it is unlikely to result in the CRL's being ignored AND getting away with it. I also think the alleged classicism in the 501st is incorrectly attributed to the accuracy qualifications, and has actually existed for at least 10 years and has gotten much better over time.
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WedgeAntilles (James Norman)
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 03, 2013 4:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I disagree. I've seen the classism issue first hand in our garrison which ended up in one member eventually getting booted from the 501st. It is there, I've seen it. I've seen people look down their noses and mistreat other members, make jokes at their expense because they have this helmet instead of that helmet. I've seen it drive people out of this hobby as well.

Its not worth it.
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GotWookiee (Matt Pfingsten)
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 03, 2013 6:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

James, your response indicates you did understand my post. I did not say that the classism you refer to doesn't exist in the 501st. I actually explicitly acknowledged it's existence, but pointed out that it has been around since long before the accuracy qualification system existed.
Quote:
I also think the alleged classicism in the 501st is incorrectly attributed to the accuracy qualifications, and has actually existed for at least 10 years and has gotten much better over time.

I've seen the problems you've described, too, James. But I saw them over 10 years ago when I first got involved with all this. My first encounter with the RL and the 501st as at Celebration 2 in May of 2002, and I saw the name calling and rudeness of some members towards Thomas Spanos in his Clone Emperor costume. I also saw his subsequent treatment over the course of the next year.
It is my opinion that this sort of behavior has gotten better over time. I don;t think what happened to Thomas Spanos would ever happen today.
My argument is not that the classism doesn't exist, I'm asserting that the accuracy qualification is not the source of the problem, and I've offered evidence to support my argument.

The other part of my argument was that the Formal/Informal ranking already functions as a defacto accuracy qualification system, and yet we have none of the problems that, according to you, we should have.
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Battlerager ()
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 03, 2013 7:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I wouldn't say we have "none" of the problems, any costume group run by people will never be perfect. We've all seen WIP threads start-up for a certain kit, the potential member gets feedback both positive and negative - and then is never heard from again. I'm an OM in the Mercs as well, and that's been a topic of much discussion lately - feedback potential new members get sometimes gives them a feeling that our groups are the "elite only", and they will never make the cut.

I'm one of those overly optimistic people that thinks any group should make it part of their mission to find new people, encourage them to join, and help them join. RL does that very well, not every group does. Makes me sound harsh....

All of the groups can do a better job of feeling more open/encouraging; I really benefited from Dantooine Base leadership wanting me to attend events, and helping me with my kits before I was ever formal. I wasn't done with my bandolier or weapon, no problem "Come on out Greg! See what it's like!" That kind of encouragement is something I hope, and believe occurs at every base.

There's a difference, which you point out, of enforcing CRLs appropriately, vs. specifically trying to exclude people or give off the feeling of elitism/classism.

RL does a great job overall if you ask me, but I still think all the groups can do better.
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 05, 2013 3:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't think the whole point was to be a dick measuring contest. Call me crazy, elitist, nice guy, bad guy, whatever...but I think people like to build to a standard to be better than the average costume group out there. I think the whole point of joining the RL/501st is to be part of that camaraderie that not all groups get to enjoy.

From a 501st standpoint I came along the line when screen costume armor became affordable, atleast for a 16 year old who worked an entire summer to buy a kit of ATA stormie armor. I couldn't afford FX, too big for me. My point is that it is far easier to be so close to screen accurate than it was years ago.

Now pieces for costumes are so accessible than it was in the past. Getting mocked for owning certain pieces is inexcusable. I am sad to hear that Thomas was mocked, because I look up to him for his huge amount of skill. I feel there was a real knee jerk reaction to this being proposed, and unnecessary.

Boiled down, having people who want to make their costume to a standard for getting it as close to what they think they've seen on screen is a fine thing. Thinking they will impose their "elitist" badges on you, silly. For some people getting a little "badge" or whatever acknowledgement that they went the extra mile to get a slice of authenticity is fine in my book.

Any day of the week though, I'd rather have more RFT's out there trooping! All this hubba balou over a obscure costume, Laughing
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Obey Wann (William Blackburn)
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 05, 2013 3:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm personally against the class system. I have seen it cause too many problems over the years.

I've been part of the RL since 2002, 501st since 2007. Both groups have done excellent jobs of improving the quality of costumes. I was proud to be a LCJ for rebel trooper and clone costumes for a number of years. I saw a lot of good, and bad costumes.

I know just how much work goes in to making sure that the new costumes in the RL are at high standards. The LCJs try to be fair, and try to give good, gentle, constructive criticism if a costume does not meet standards. And even with that, we lose potentially good recruits if they don't like our first set of suggested changes.

A rejection from a judge can cause us to lose people that may have been top notch, wonderful troopers who go to every event. I have seen that on both the 501st and RL side. I hate losing good volunteers because new people see us (RL and especially 501st) as too elitist, too snobby, too cliquish.

This is a volunteer group who does charity work. Personally, I think going too uber anal extreme makes it more intimidating for new recruits, and it can even infuriate longstanding quality troopers if they try to go for the elite status and get turned down after hours of rework and money spent. (Especially in the pathfinders.)

This is supposed to be fun. Yes, we need standards, but IMHO, adding "centurion" standards just makes it elitist, snobby and... not fun.
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 06, 2013 11:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hm, I´m no fan of any "über - classification systems", too.

In the RL we already have a lot of different costume detachments, many enough to make it look "complicate" for a newbie/ possible recruit.
We have our standards as a guideline and for "the great majority". If someone wants to (and can afford it!) do a "just perfect in all means" job he/ she will get his/her appreciation anyway!

Creating elitism sounds too imperial to me...
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Schph Gochi (Phyllis Schulte)
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 11, 2013 1:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

In my opinion..

whether it be RFT
ERS
HRS
Yavin Tech..

whatever.....

THE best approach is to match the other members in your Base.

Your Base-mates that have the same costume you have are the ones you will likely troop with...
and
you looking like the rest of your Base is really more important than who has what....
it will make you look more like a "unit"....
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Mac Bragg ()
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 13, 2013 2:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Schph Gochi wrote:
Your Base-mates that have the same costume you have are the ones you will likely troop with...
and you looking like the rest of your Base is really more important than who has what....
it will make you look more like a "unit"....


Establishing an "Ultra Accurate Screen-Used Costume Duplication" class would mean:

1. Helmet must be light gray
2. Shirts would be much darker than 90% of us are wearing (me included!)
3. Un-modified BDU pants would not be acceptable - leg pockets are longer and do not have pleats. Ripstop fabric would be right out.
4. There would have to be so many changes to a black BDU based vest (differnet size pockets, recut the neck and lapels so it doesn't overlap, etc) you would really have to make it from scratch.
5. Full size DH-17's only - the toys are 20% undersized, and the full-size would have to "droop" to match the mold defect in the resin cast screen used props...

What we have now is both acceptable to LFL and presents a "standard" appearance.

Dig up the trooper photos from CVI - I was looking at them the other day and I realized just how consistent our costumes look. We look like we all got our gear from the same supply room.

I think we can take some pride in that.
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 13, 2013 8:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mac Bragg wrote:


I think we can take some pride in that.


Ditto..
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