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Episode I Battle Handmaiden Holster
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Post new topic   This topic is locked: you cannot edit posts or make replies.    Rebel Legion Forum Index -> Costume and Prop Making -> Royalty/Senatorial -> Handmaidens
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JediDWH (Lisa Curtis)
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 13, 2012 8:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'd just like to say, for as long as this thread has been sitting here, the fact that none of the LCJs have outlined what is and is not going to be allowed for this holster is absolutely unacceptable. As members of the Rebel Legion and the RLGS, we deserve better from our leadership.

Don't leave it to your members to flail about and try to figure out what something is, only after you've made it a mandate. It sets a poor example for all of us, and gives us little confidence that y'all can do your jobs properly.
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Mara Skywalker (Anna)
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 13, 2012 8:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

just a thought - have you tried sending a PM to the judges in question, giving them a heads up that you'd like their input? Perhaps they are unaware of the real discussion going on here, as the title doesn't really indicate the major "drama" actually going on in the thread Smile They might not have read it?
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 13, 2012 10:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Good idea, Anna! I keep seeing comments about the LCJs not dictating what it should look like, and I really do understand that it's nice to have a guide to base your work on. My concern here is that no one else who is invested time and energy into this costume has decided to do the research. Yes, I can sympathize that you feel insulted. No, your Formal costume is not being retroactively denied. You are grandfathered in and do not have to make this holster. I would recommend it anyway. That's part of what we are all here for. We want to have the best costumes around. Sometimes that means we make tweaks and improvements as new information comes out.

Yes, I agree that the way this update trickled down was poorly planned, but instead of arguing and venting about how angry we all are, let's rechannel that energy into figuring out what this holster should look like so that we can drive that part of the standard.

To wrap up: less angry more progress.
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SoloYT1300 (Robert Kohn)
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 13, 2012 11:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I might be able to assist in the research part of it all. My wife (who is an LCJ) had asked me to do some research on this holster a while back to figure out what it was and how it works.

I have done the research, and I know how it can be made if someone wants to do it.

I really am in no position to make it for I feel it's a conflicting interest if I did make it, for my wife is one of the LCJ's who wrote it into the standards. How would it look if my wife was partially responsible for putting it into the standards then all of a sudden I am selling holsters.

With that said and the lack of need for the holster in my area... I have no plans to make it.

I would be willing to work with anyone who wants to make it though.

Bob
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JediDWH (Lisa Curtis)
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 14, 2012 12:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

We want the LCJs input because we don't know what we're being judged on. We want their input because they came up with this rule. We want their input because we're really confused here, and answers are helpful.

I'm sorry, I know I'm being a rabble-rouser here, but my costume is not the point here (insult aside, and I think most of us can agree the move was highly insulting). I'm not anti-holster as a rule, I'm anti-required holster. I think it should be an optional item, for reasons that have been outlined by myself and by others several times in this thread. And forgive me for not feeling inclined to come up with solutions for something I don't think should be a required item in the first place.

If this had been a real discussion with us, perhaps I'd be feeling more cooperative in offering up ideas. But right now all I'm seeing is a lot of complaints from the members who have or were wanting to make this costume, and us simply being told to shut up and deal with it because that's how it is.

This was handled badly from the start. Maybe that could improve if we could feel like we were actually being listened to.
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SongofAmazon (Jenna)
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 14, 2012 2:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

FenigDurak wrote:
My concern here is that no one else who is invested time and energy into this costume has decided to do the research.


It wasn't so much that, after all the other time I spent researching for our handmaiden project, I just decided not to research the holster. In the references I was using, which were largely the exhibit photos as they are the highest resolution, that holster wasn't there. Usually exhibit photos are acceptable canon references, right? It wasn't there, so I didn't research it.

And really, I'm with DWH on this one, I really can't bring myself to start researching how to do this holster to help the folks who are working on this costume get it approved until I know what exactly the LCJs are looking for in their approval process. With most costumes, there is an exact way and there is a good-enough way that is cheaper and more doable for the everyday costumer. I'd really like to know what those limits are before we start discussing how to make it.
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RebelSenator (Raychel Enck)
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 14, 2012 3:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The CRL's are updated regularly. If you'd like to see just how much our standards have changed over the years, take a look at our first set of trading cards. Very interesting Razz
http://www.rebellegion.com/series1.php

The decision about this standard was made on July 24th and this is the new standard. I understand that you may not like the change. I also understand that you may not like how the changed was rolled out. However, change is here so I ask that you please make the best of it.

As far as what the LCJ's are looking for, they are looking for a holster as close to the reference photos (that have been posted earlier in this thead) as possible. So, this is our goal.

We are all here to help and support each other. SoloYT1300 has offered assistance with research. Leah has offered to take a hand at making a prototype.

The royalty/senatorial costumes are by far the most complex costumes to recreate requiring a great deal of research and time. We are an elite costuming group with high standards. We are all here to help each other meet those standards. Robert and Leah have both offered their assistance so if you are stuck on what/how to create this, please reach out to them.
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SoloYT1300 (Robert Kohn)
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 14, 2012 4:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

TBH... I think alot of the issues is that very little has been done about Detachment procedure when it comes to standard updates.

There is not one standard update for the Fringe that was passed that did not go thru the detachment first. Thats part of the charter, a section that describes what the detachments are responsible for. It was not always that way and it took some arguments to make that happen. I would highly recommend working with your new DCO and DXO to understanding the procedure to updating the costume standards.
The final write ups and voting is done by the costume standard committee as it should be, but it's the duty of the detachment to provide new information to the standards committee as it is found... like the holster. I truly believe that as a group you will only get better if you have the detachment working on issues... instead of complaining.

The detachment is more than just a place for patches and coins... it should be a place where information is gathered to help new people and to promote the standards to movie accuracy.

Quote:
Usually exhibit photos are acceptable canon references, right? It wasn't there, so I didn't research it.




This is a picture of an exhibit of a Han costume....

ROTJ blaster
ANH gloves
ESB shirt
ROTJ vest
ESB holster

Exhibits are the worst sort of reference if your looking for the whole picture. They are great to get details if you can asure that what you are looking at is actually correct. Not to mention LFL has a habbit of making multiple costumes and props for displays only... of which may also not be correct. There are wookiees out there on display that have completly different feet from what is in the movies... so no, Exhibits are NOT cannon! They are a tool like many resources... if used properly can be a huge asset.
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PadmeSkywalker (Carrie Christian)
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 14, 2012 5:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

SoloYT1300 wrote:
TBH... I think alot of the issues is that very little has been done about Detachment procedure when it comes to standard updates.

There is not one standard update for the Fringe that was passed that did not go thru the detachment first. Thats part of the charter, a section that describes what the detachments are responsible for. It was not always that way and it took some arguments to make that happen. I would highly recommend working with your new DCO and DXO to understanding the procedure to updating the costume standards.
The final write ups and voting is done by the costume standard committee as it should be, but it's the duty of the detachment to provide new information to the standards committee as it is found... like the holster.



I have been following this thread over the past few weeks but have not felt too inclined to comment, as I have not and currently do not plan on making this costume (more financial reasons than not). However, I believe that Bob's statement here is what everyone has been arguing about...the fact that the detachment was NOT consulted for discussion when the decision was made. I also was under the impression that the detachment members were to have an input on standards changes, especially when it is something that can truly have an effect on many. As a member of the RLGS, I, too, am extremely offended that we were not a part of any discussion on this...especially when we have a group of ladies who spent a lot of time researching the costume before making it. We need to let this particular standards change be a lesson not only to us but to the LCJs as well...the members of the RLGS should be a part of any discussion in terms of changes to the standards and not have it be a closed-door discussion among a few.
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Mara Skywalker (Anna)
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 14, 2012 7:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

JediDWH wrote:
We want the LCJs input because we don't know what we're being judged on. We want their input because they came up with this rule. We want their input because we're really confused here, and answers are helpful..


Again I ask: :-) have you pm's the judges in question? Wanting answers is fine -but it is a big forum, and to just sit around and wait and hope the judges find the thread might be a little optimistic :-)
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Obi Anne (Johanna Nybelius)
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 14, 2012 7:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I must agree with what has been said by most members here. I normally like the way the RL handles things when it comes to approval, with dedicated LCJs who are experts on the costumes they are judging. The fact is though that the Royalty/Senatorial costume group is very complex, and not even asking the members who have done the research to give their input makes you question why we have a detachment in the first place. I want the detachment to be something more than just a chance to get more merchandise and the will is definitely there from the members's side.

In the spring, when you started hearing about the change, you had several threads in this forum that discussed possible changes for the costumes. In these discussions what I got from the judges was "this is what we are going to change", but not much discussion about what the people who had made the costumes were thinking.

Handmaiden flamegown standards discussion - http://www.rebellegion.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=40135

TPM purple travel gown - http://www.rebellegion.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=39291 (and these new standards also have a case of requiring something that I don't think anyone knows what it looks like, the embroidery in the corners of the veil)

So yes I would say that the detachment is definitely interested in helping out, but there doesn't seem to have been much interest from the judges about using the members' knowledge.
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JediDWH (Lisa Curtis)
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 14, 2012 11:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mara Skywalker wrote:
JediDWH wrote:
We want the LCJs input because we don't know what we're being judged on. We want their input because they came up with this rule. We want their input because we're really confused here, and answers are helpful..


Again I ask: :-) have you pm's the judges in question? Wanting answers is fine -but it is a big forum, and to just sit around and wait and hope the judges find the thread might be a little optimistic :-)


Because one of the LCJs has been in here, and hasn't answered any of our questions, and if the others haven't even popped into their forum of focus in the last few weeks and clicked on this thread, then they are lax in their duties, in my opinion. They have been in this forum and made posts, and it was known when this was added to the standards this would be controversial (see Mieal's earlier posts). I don't believe for two seconds they haven't seen this; they're just not responding. I can't tell you why they're not, but they're not.
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Commander Cody (Jason R.)
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 14, 2012 12:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Discussion has started on how to approach the holster in terms of construction, so that gives an answer to the "how to" question. If you're unable to construct the piece, then commission someone to do it for you.

So, what is the real issue here? Is it because the detachment wasn't consulted on the change? If so, then yes, that's a valid complaint. The correct procedure for changing a standard wasn't followed in this instance- even though your former DCO was an LCJ at the time and had access to the discussion- but the standard has been written to reflect an updated, more accurate costume.

This thread needs to go in a new direction or I will lock it, because right now, it's just going in circles. Take the initiative and start working on this holster instead of beating a dead horse.
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Miana (Rachel Williams)
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 14, 2012 7:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Commander Cody wrote:
So, what is the real issue here? Is it because the detachment wasn't consulted on the change? If so, then yes, that's a valid complaint. The correct procedure for changing a standard wasn't followed in this instance- even though your former DCO was an LCJ at the time and had access to the discussion- but the standard has been written to reflect an updated, more accurate costume.


As the standards change all the time, and as the correct procedure wasn't followed, then would it be beneficial to revist some of the standards, present the changes that the LCJs made to the detachment and get their feedback to tweak from there? Just because they were just updated doesn't mean that we have to slap a lock on them and say that we can't touch them for another few years.
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 14, 2012 7:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Miana wrote:


As the standards change all the time, and as the correct procedure wasn't followed, then would it be beneficial to revist some of the standards, present the changes that the LCJs made to the detachment and get their feedback to tweak from there? Just because they were just updated doesn't mean that we have to slap a lock on them and say that we can't touch them for another few years.


I agree with you that standards are a living document, but revisions and corrects should be made to improve the costume standards, in a forward movement, not pull them backwards. The costume standard is more accurate now and I fail to see how making them less accurate would benefit anyone.
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