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Handmaiden flamegown standard discussion
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Lora Skywalker ()
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 27, 2012 8:26 pm    Post subject: Handmaiden flamegown standard discussion Reply with quote

Okay, so there's been a few standards discussions now that the reviewing of all the costumes are through, and I thought the flamegown could use an update. (It really needs it).

The current standard is:
Required Items: 

1.Velvet gown shifting from an orange hood and shoulders to yellow hem. 
2.Large pointed sleeves need to match color shift. 
3.Fitted deep orange/red under sleeves match deep orange/red belt/sash, high collar and hidden hood brim.


My proposed standard is:

Required items:
1.Inner red shirt or mock shirt with fitted sleeves going to wrist/knuckles.
2.Velvet inner full dress with large, baggy, pointed sleeves. The sleeves should have a V shape in the bottom. The dress must be at least angle lenght. The dress should go from light yellow in the bottom to orange in the top with a gradual shift in color. (No traffic light effect).
3.Red tight fitting balaclava with a brim. Must match the red shirt. No visible hair.
4.Velvet outer dress, open in both sides from the shoulders and down, with hood. The only visible seamlines are at the waist (where the top of the sash are) and the diagonal lines going from the bottom sides of the hood to below the shoulders on the front. No seamlines between the back and hood. Lining is recommended, but not required. The color shift on the outer dress must match the inner dress. Outer dress has no sleeves.
5.Red sash going around the waist and covering the behind of the wearer. It is gathered in front giving it an inverted V shape and wrapped right over left, with the right end tucked over and under the left part of the sash. There must be at least three folds where the fabric has been gathered. Must match the other red parts. No visible closing features.
6.Off white or cream white shoes, preferably with a high heel. (I would say between 1 inch and 2 inches).


Optional items:
1.Red applique/embroidery on the red sleeves. Going from wrist to just below or at elbow.



The reason I made the applique optional is because I've found that it doesn't really show on pics and is more a nice detail that adds to the costume, but doesn't take away from it even if it isn't there.

I feel these points helps clear up just what goes into the costume, without making it an impossible costume to do. Smile I hope others will give their opinion on this, so we can make sure we get the best possible standards.

Note that what I wrote in italics is not an actual part of the proposed standards, but an opinion.
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GentleBant ()
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 28, 2012 3:58 am    Post subject: Re: Handmaiden flamegown standard discussion Reply with quote

There are a few points I have a slightly different opinion on.

1. I don't think we should make it a requirement that the red sleeves be a full shirt.
Reason:
The appearance gown from the archives does NOT have a separate red undershirt. There are simply long sleeves sewn to the armholes of the main velvet gown.

2. I would call the sleeves "full" rather than "baggy". The actual gown's sleeves were diamond-shaped all three dimensions. Also, I think we should call it "floor length". (That part's just my own opinion.) Do we need to say anything about the fullness or flare of the skirt? (i.e., A line or tapered/slightly flared skirt so we don't have any "sheath" or fitted skirts?)

4. Do we want to call the hood layer a dress?
The archive gown's hood/tabbard layer only went to the waist and was sewn to the obi. However, the movie version's went to the floor.
Also, while I agree with no seamlines attaching the hood to the back, I don't know that specifying the angle of the front seam is necessary. Just my opinion on that one, though.

5. I think we should state that the sash/obi tapers at the ends. That would address the statement about the inverted-v shape.

6. I don't think footwear, other than stating that it should be a dress shoe or coordinating shoe, should matter. The shoe doesn't show. (I confess to wearing yellow Sketchers mary-janes with mine, especially since my feet get sore on long troops and I'm a klutz in dress shoes.) I don't know that wearing a heel adds anything to the costume.

I would keep the applique requirement in for formal standards. It's a beautiful part of the costume, and very noticiable when viewed on display.

Also, I think we should add a restriction of no crushed velvet; should it be specified that it should be a plush velvet?
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Lora Skywalker ()
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 28, 2012 10:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

1. That's why I wrote 'mock shirt'. I prefer a seperate shirt myself as it's easier to wash, but I don't want to make it a requirement. It could be refrased as 'long, fitted, red sleeves either attaches to the dress or a inner shirt'.

2. 'Full' vs 'baggy': I don't care as long as people understand the sleeves have a lot of volume. That's why I wrote baggy. Smile
Maybe add 'the skirt should not be tight fitted, but have some flare'. Would that be sufficient?

4. Do we want to call the hood layer a dress? I'm open to suggestions on this one. I didn't know what else to call it. Tabbard?
As to the seamline I was trying to describe how it looks. It probably has a proper name I don't know.

5. It tapers, yes, but it is also clearly gathered, which is what creates the very clear foldlines. I wrote the above to avoid completely smooth sashes.

6. I wrote that based on pics/video where the footwear does show. Granted they are hard to see, but it's clearly a light shoe (with a heel). How high the heel is I can't tell. I'm willing to say it could both be a heel or no heel shoe, simply because, yes, high heels do tend to kill your feet. (Mine certainly didn't like me after the last troop).

I like the applique, too. Currently it's not even mentioned. I suggested it for optional, because I put some on mine and even knowing it's there, I can barely see it on pics taken at a normal picture taking distance. It only shows on close-ups. But if others (and the judges) think it should be required in the future I'm supporting that decision.

Velvet... Hmm, to be honest I don't know about restrictions, except that people should avoid something too dense/heavy. (It wouldn't flow right). And that's more of an advice for me. I feel that it is up to the costumer to get the costume to look good. Smile And I do think there's sometimes too many material restrictions on costumes for no good (obvious) reason, which I'd like to avoid. The important thing to me is that it looks good.

For the gathered folds on the sash:


You can see the shoe sticking out here: (I think we watched the film in slow motion to look for shoe details).


The shoe should more or less match the bottom of the dress, so off white, creme white or a light yellow could be used. Smile (But finding light yellow shoes to match the light yellow of the dress is nearly impossible, so unless you dye them yourself creme white/off white would be more feasible).
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Obi Anne (Johanna Nybelius)
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 29, 2012 5:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I haven't worked on this dress myself but I agree with Joslynn about having the applique be formal, and not allowing crushed velvets. It adds so much to the costume to have those details.
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 29, 2012 8:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

if crushed velvet is what we call "nervøs velour" in Danish, then I agree it shuold be a no go. While Lora surely made her dress look nice, I just don't find that kind of fabric suitable for high quality costumes (no offense Lora, your (an Gina's) dresses look great, I'm just not too fond of the fabric Smile )
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GentleBant ()
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 29, 2012 6:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here is a side-by-side-by-side comparison of fabrics from three versions I've made of the flame gown. (There's more, but we won't bring them up. Very Happy )



The top is silk velvet, the middle is a rayon velvet, and the bottom is a crushed velvet. The one in my profile picture is the middle one and is in the process of being updated.

Maybe a compromise would be for the plusher velvet and the applique to be formal status? Or maybe just a requirement for high-profile events, rather than for regular troops?

I think a plusher velvet looks more accurate, but also understand that it's prohibitively expensive. Cotton or rayon velvet could be fine. I do think that we should not accept the crushed velvet as formal. It's too "shiny" and doesn't have the rich and lush look of the original.

And maybe just "coordinating dress shoe" in a yellow, off-white, or beige?
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Miana (Rachel Williams)
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 02, 2012 7:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

We've been working on updating all of the standards for when they open back up again and this was one of the first we did.

Here's what the other judges and I worked out:

Padme Amidala (Episode I: The Phantom Menace, Flame Gown)
Required Items:
  1. Ombre-dyed velvet gown with a hooded floor-length front and back tabard, shifting from a dark/burnt orange hood and shoulders to a pale yellow hem. Hood should be lined. Large pointed sleeves need to match color gradient. No panne velvet.
  2. Fitted under hood of a red matte fabric with an obvious brim and high collar.
  3. Fitted under sleeves of a red matte fabric with detailed red lace applique on forearm at the hem.
  4. Large waist sash of a red matte fabric with a pleated, asymmetrical cross-over in the front that widens at the back to nearly or completely cover the hips and rear.
  5. Hair should be pulled back and hidden under the hood. No bangs. Naturally-occuring hair colors only.
  6. Low-heeled coordinating tailored pumps or flats.

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GentleBant ()
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 02, 2012 5:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I know this may be over-debating, but I'm going to reiterate that the archives/appearance gown (which isn't the same as the movie version, granted) does not have a floor-length tabbard, so I think that should be an option.

Picture of the hood/tabard/obi assembly:

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Miana (Rachel Williams)
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 02, 2012 5:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

That's a fair point, and you would know best. Wink

I know right now everything's leaning toward movie canon, but I'll definitely bring it up.
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 03, 2012 4:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, my thought is that if this is one version that LFL is sending out to show people sometimes (outside of the Dressing a Galaxy exhibits), it should count as formal.

It'd be kinda' ironic if one of their gowns wouldn't be considered formal. Very Happy
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Leia (Vera Campbell)
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 04, 2012 12:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Miana wrote:
[*]Hair should be pulled back and hidden under the hood. No bangs. Naturally-occuring hair colors only. [/list][/color]


Does it matter if the hair color is natural or not if it's hidden? Wink
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Miana (Rachel Williams)
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 04, 2012 4:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

HAHA that's what I thought.

And Joslynn, I think we're changing it to allow either tabbard length. Smile
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Lora Skywalker ()
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 04, 2012 7:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Why the hair color mention? That just made me laugh. Laughing

Personally I prefer movie canon; just because they choose to put one on display that doesn't have the floor lenght tabard, I don't consider it a reason to make that an option, when it's not in the movie (or EU).

So... what is panne velvet? (Since you are banning it it would be nice to know what it is for future costumers). Wink And my dictionary doesn't know.
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 04, 2012 10:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I mean, if you prefer movie canon, then by all means make the floor-length tabbard; nothing's stopping you. I think the idea at work here is that if it's good enough for Lucasfilm, it ought to be good enough for us. Which I think is a completely fair statement to make. Smile
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 04, 2012 11:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lora Skywalker wrote:

So... what is panne velvet? (Since you are banning it it would be nice to know what it is for future costumers). Wink And my dictionary doesn't know.


What Is Panne Velvet Material?
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