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Han Solo ESB Carbon Freezing - Standard Removal Proposal
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Havok69Fri Jun 22, 2012 1:59 amTue Jun 26, 2012 3:03 am
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theeviltwin ()
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 21, 2012 10:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nikkos Khann wrote:
theeviltwin wrote:
I'm proposing we reclassify it from formal to informal (specifically that it is an informal variant of the Bespin Han).


Your original proposal was to remove it entirely. So now you are proposing to reclassify the standard? I would be more inclined to go along with that proposal. However, I still think it should be a standalone formal costume.


The final, practical result would be that "Han Solo (Episode V: The Empire Strikes Back, Carbon freezing chamber)" would be an informal costume variant / derivative of the formal "Han Solo (Episode V: The Empire Strikes Back)". The standards for the Carbonite Han would indeed go from the formal standards list, but the same details specifications for the parts of the ESB costume not taken off Han are still present anyway in the formal standards for the ESB Han. The restraints could be added as optional for use with the informal Carbonite variant.
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Havok69 ()
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 26, 2012 3:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I see this one as kind of a freebie for the ESB Hans; take off your jacket and your gunbelt and you have another costume.

It's not quite like the post trash compactor Han in ANH as you do remove the gunbelt, but you add the Stormtrooper belt and E-11 blaster - which give it a completely different look as opposed to just removing some articles.
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 26, 2012 3:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Actually I would disagree... the post trash compactor is much easier... for all items have multiple vendors. The binders for the carbonite scene are actually something you cannot buy... you have to make.
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 26, 2012 7:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

SoloYT1300 wrote:
Actually I would disagree... the post trash compactor is much easier... for all items have multiple vendors. The binders for the carbonite scene are actually something you cannot buy... you have to make.


Exactly ...
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 26, 2012 2:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

But the binders would be optional, no?
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 26, 2012 2:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Havok69 wrote:
But the binders would be optional, no?


No ...

Quote:
5. arm restraints


are already required item for this costume ...
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 26, 2012 2:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Havok69 wrote:
But the binders would be optional, no?


I do not believe there is a time in that scene where he does not have the binders on... so I would think it would be a manditory item for that costume.

We need to be carefull what we place in the "Option field". The option field has been used more and more as a compromise to those who are unable to complete a movieaccurate costume. The idea of the option field was to place items that the character does not have in every scene. I do not feel that the binders should be in option field.

I have never been a fan of how we have dealt with the option field, but in this case I do not think it applies to this costume.
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 26, 2012 4:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Gotcha - good point, there's only that one scene, so yes, I would agree about the arm restraints at least. I was thinking of the binders and arm restraints as the same, which I realize now is wrong.

So I guess it isn't a freebie, but an easy upgrade for an ESB Han. You could probably get away with making the restraints out of foam and painting them to look metallic.
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 28, 2012 1:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Returning to my points regarding the Carbonite Han costume not being enough - what do I mean by enough?

I don't think it is possible to scientifically quantify "enough". There's no unit of measurement or scale on which to measure a costume and draw the line on what is or isn't enough. But that does not mean that line does not exist or we can't use our judgement as to whether the line has been crossed. It's one of the reasons why the RL is run by people and not computers.

Enough is defined by many factors. Our ultimate goal as a costuming club and members is to provide a "service" to a broad range of "customers". We appreciate Carbonite Han, and we appreciate any well executed costume, as would any dedicated SW fan. Carbonite Han is a great roleplay costume - it would work well with a Fett, a few TKs, or Boushh. In the right skit, photo opp or with a Carbonite chamber set it would be great. But that is really as far as the costume goes. What about the children orientated events? What about the events where we receive donations for bringing something special to a corporate specific event? What about the events that don't draw in the SW knowledgable public?

No Han Solo costume will be appreciated 100% of the time at 100% of events. But surely it is the goal of a formal costume to be appreciated - and therefore add costuming value - at the majority of events.

I'm lucky in that I've had the opportunity to attend a very broad range of events for a broad range of clients and the public. This has included a wide range of costuming opportunities including large set pieces, very SW savvy public, and trooping along side a massive range of rebel and imperial costumers. I can honestly and generously say that it would have been effective and appropriate to go costuming as Carbonite Han for a total of 5% of that costuming time. Maybe my experiences are exceptional, but in all honesty i don't think the opportunities have been below average for me. The circumstances where it does bring enough to the table are just not that common.

The rules ground a potential costume to what appears in the SW universe (movies, comics, etc.). The rules do not dictate that everything that appears in the SW universe is by definition a unique costume. This does relate to how rules are used and applied. In short, rules are there to serve a goal. The goal for the rules is not to serve the rules. So the rules have to be used and applied accordingly - and that requires human brains. We don't need to change the rules or even bend them in any way, we just have to use them to support the goals. We need to use the rules to define Carbonite Han as the fraction of the ESB Han that it is, and not a unique costume in its own right, because it is not enough to support all the goals (our mission) a membership formal costume should be able to.
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 28, 2012 1:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If Lucas felt it wasn't a seperate costume why do we have all those toys?

Its not up to us to determine standards based on the % usefullness of a costume... that would be the event coordinators job. If it was we could illiminate a good 50% of our costume standards alltogether.
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 28, 2012 8:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I am sorry Greg but I do not agree with your reasoning at all. I believe the costume is worthy to stand alone as a FORMAL costume and not as informal like you would like it to be.

It was in the movie and it should stay in the standards. Period.

I appreciate your level of detail for costumes, but sometimes I think you may not be able to see the Forrest for the trees. What I mean by that is you are so focused on the 'enough'ness of this costume that you are losing the whole picture. In the Star Wars universe I do believe this costume IS iconic and IS worthy to stand alone. Lucas apparently did as well.
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 28, 2012 8:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lets not kid ourselves about the toys guys; Lucas is in it for the money. Period. He will try to sell us anything Star Wars related. Remember when Han strapped on a huge flight pack in A New Hope? I sure don't...



I can definitely see Greg's point about "enoughness" - Carbonite Han is basically a guy wearing some striped pants and a shirt. You take away the gunbelt and jacket and Han loses almost all recognizability from the general public. He does make an excellent point that the costume can have it's place in a skit with Boba Fett, etc, but otherwise, hardly anyone will get it.

I understand that we're not so much about the public getting it, but I think putting it in the informal category is a good compromise for everyone.

Besides, if you work on a Han costume, you need to earn your wings and build that gunbelt, right?

Mr. Green
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theeviltwin ()
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 28, 2012 8:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

SoloYT1300 wrote:
If Lucas felt it wasn't a seperate costume why do we have all those toys?


If Lucas felt it was enough to sell a toy of that costume in its own right, why do all those Carbonite Chamber Han toys never come separately? Why do they always need more than just Carbonite Chamber Han included in the box (usually Carbonite Block Han) for the toy to be worth spending the same money on as fans are prepared to pay for other Han versions on their own?

SoloYT1300 wrote:
Its not up to us to determine standards based on the % usefullness of a costume... that would be the event coordinators job.


The standards don't define the costume, the costume defines the standards. The costume and its costuming value / "usefullness" is defined by everyone it touches. We might try to meet their expectations with the three reference and other rules. But the formal costume rules should be used to serve all the people the costuming serves, not the costume or rules themselves.

Yes it is the ECs job to define what costumes are appropriate for events. But the RL has formal and informal designations to help them do their job. How does it help ECs serve their event sponsors when they have to vet every formal costume at every formal event? It's a difficult and taxing enough process as it is when the event sponsor themselves want to do it.

SoloYT1300 wrote:
If it was we could illiminate a good 50% of our costume standards alltogether.


Any other costume is beyond the scope of the proposal. This proposes a change of one specific standard, not RL rules, the charter or policy.

If you want my opinions on other costumes, start your own thread! Razz
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 28, 2012 8:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well technically per the charter it is a costume then... for its in the movie... and also has 3 references (not that it needs them).

Instead of removing ways for people to become members... maybe we can find ways to assist them instead... this is not helping.
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 28, 2012 10:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nikkos Khann wrote:
I am sorry Greg but I do not agree with your reasoning at all. I believe the costume is worthy to stand alone as a FORMAL costume and not as informal like you would like it to be.

It was in the movie and it should stay in the standards. Period.

I appreciate your level of detail for costumes, but sometimes I think you may not be able to see the Forrest for the trees. What I mean by that is you are so focused on the 'enough'ness of this costume that you are losing the whole picture. In the Star Wars universe I do believe this costume IS iconic and IS worthy to stand alone. Lucas apparently did as well.


In this thread I'm focused on expressing my opinion and presenting a reasoned case for it in an as objective and clear way as my forum communication skills and the subject will allow.

The enoughness / impact we have on the public while costuming are the qualities you can't define with rules - that doesn't make them any less an important part of the big picture. It just means using the rules to make sure the undefinable but vital factors are included in the big picture is even more important. Otherwise satisfying the rules for their own sake becomes all that is left in the big picture. Where's meeting the RL mission in that?
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