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Han Solo ESB Carbon Freezing - Standard Removal Proposal
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theeviltwin ()
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 28, 2012 11:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

SoloYT1300 wrote:
Well technically per the charter it is a costume then... for its in the movie... and also has 3 references (not that it needs them).


"Formal is defined as a costume from one of the six Star Wars films, Expanded Universe, or Lucasfilm Licensed Media (TV, books, games, etc.) as it would appear in those materials."

not

"Formal is defined as every costume from one of the six Star Wars films, Expanded Universe, or Lucasfilm Licensed Media (TV, books, games, etc.) as it would appear in those materials."

nor

"Everything appearing in one of the six Star Wars films, Expanded Universe, or Lucasfilm Licensed Media (TV, books, games, etc.) defines a costume and is formal if represented as it would appear in at least one scene in those materials."

SoloYT1300 wrote:

Instead of removing ways for people to become members... maybe we can find ways to assist them instead... this is not helping.


I expressed the proposal because it helps us achieve our RL mission, vision and values. This does not prevent us from also finding ways of assisting people to become members. I'm proposing we remove a way for people to become members that does not support our overall mission.

There are three parts to our mission. Two of them you can try and define with rules. The third - the effect of what you do with your costume, you can't define rules for. If we sacrifice this by disregarding everything but the rules applied at their lowest denominator, in only the parts rules can be defined for, we fail the RL mission.
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SoloYT1300 (Robert Kohn)
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 29, 2012 2:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Being that we do not have a single member with this costume anymore... I doubt the rebel mission vision or vaules is in any danger if we allow a costume that fits all the requirements of a costume.


The effort we have placed on removing a standard that has been in place for a while now... could be put forward to a topic that is much more important.

We gain nothing by removing the standard. However the potential loss of a member who could have used it as entrance in the RL... for what?

Would we really deny a costume as iconic as Han (carbonite scene) when we allow such characters into the RL like:

Willrow Hood - Ice Cream Maker Guy?


Thats right guys and gals... this guy running for a whopping 1-2 seconds.... around a corner... is a legitimate formal costume. yet I am to believe that a costume that extends into two movies... does not?

Look...

I am not a fan of people who do a half arse job on costumes... and my stay on as an LCJ was short lived because I was way to strict in judging costumes. However I still have yet to see why this is not a costume.

I also do not understand Greg why you keep trying to downtalk the use of the mechandice of this costume in toys? So am I to understand its a lesser costume if it comes with a prop? The Han in carbonite has become just as iconic as a Han pre carbonite... they work together, because its in the same scene.

We have in the past allowed many costumes into the legion costumes that are in the movie... that are not iconic. Costumes do not have to be iconic to be formal. If we did, we would have a ton less costumes. These costumes all have a place at events. Not all events work for every costume, but they all have a place. My base has a Halogram Leia which is absolutly fantastic! If you have seen it in person you would be blown away... yet its a small scene. Like the Icecream maker dude... it's in the movie, hence forth should be allowed as a formal costume.

I really see no merit in removing the standard...
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theeviltwin ()
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 29, 2012 1:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

SoloYT1300 wrote:

I also do not understand Greg why you keep trying to downtalk the use of the mechandice of this costume in toys? So am I to understand its a lesser costume if it comes with a prop? The Han in carbonite has become just as iconic as a Han pre carbonite... they work together, because its in the same scene.


I can only go with I'm failing to communicate my point so here's another way of expressing it.

I understand the analogy, I just think it is badly flawed.

The mission of producing a toy is to make money. In order to make money the toy has to shift of shelves. In order to shift toys, you need to produce what your market wants to buy. The reason you add content to your product is because your market doesn't see enough value in the standalone item to justify an adequate return of investment. Only then does your product sell, and you achieve your mission.

A Carbonite Han toy will not sell if sold on its own. It isn't enough on its own for kids to want. Sure you will get some sold and collectors will buy them, but that isn't enough market share to justify its place on the shelf. Manufactures have no choice but to limit where it sold (to a sub market), throw in a sweetener to bump up interest (usually the Carbonite block as they do go well together), or just not produce them.

To use the toy / costume analogy, you have to accept that the Carbonite Han costume either needs a sweetener (a supporting set, skit, etc.), or only appeals to a sub-group of the fans and events we go to. I'm not suggesting we add a Carbonite block to the Carbonite Han costume requirements. But I am suggesting it should be informal where it would serve the very limited sub-market.

Every time an event sponsor extends an invitation for us to costume at their event, they make an investment. We know this ranges from simply their time to liase with us, reputation "risk" (that we won't look silly at their event), providing water, all the way up to hiring transport and changing areas and donating significant amounts to charity for us to add some SW magic to their event.

Event sponsors expect a return on investment. If we agree to provide 10 SW magic adding costumers to an event and the sponsor invests resources to secure / support that, they will not necessarily be happy to have 9 SW magic adding costumers and one that does not add enough value (without supporting sweetners) to meet their expectations. ECs get the tough job of deciding what will meet the expectations of an event sponsor, but the formal / informal designation is a major tool used. It's a bit much to expect ECs to deal with the consequences of miss-identifying Carbonite Han as formal.

PS. I'm not a "two wrongs make a right" person. I also think these issues are something you can't make a micromanaging blanket rule for and evey case needs to be looked at separately. This is also why it is we have people to apply the rules to make decisions, not the rules making the decisions for us. Lastly, that we don't have a single member with this costume at the moment makes this the perfect time to make the proposal and deal with the issue. This is about proactively dealing with a problem before it happens, not ignoring it until it is too late.
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Blair (Vlastimil Sprta)
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 29, 2012 4:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Fact nr. 1:

Lucasfilm and another "toy" companies (Hasbro, etc.) doing deep research regarding market.

Like Greg noted, they wanna made a money ... BUT ... this is the thing ... they focusing on products which are producing -> because they must sell it Wink ...

So, they are two options:

Lucasfilm producing "Han Solo" pre/carbonite stuff because it is popular and people would like to have it Wink (so, it speak against formal status removal)

OR

Lucasfilm producing "Han Solo" pre/carbonite stuff because they just want. So, it is important for Lucasfilm Wink (again, speak against formal status costume removal)


Fact nr. 2:

We are costuming club. Not "trooping" club.

Here was lot of speak about events, etc. -> come on ... in each part of the world, there are different events with different requirements Wink
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Nikkos Khann (Conley Nichols)
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 02, 2012 12:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

http://www.cracked.com/article_19918_6-terrible-decisions-that-gave-us-great-movie-moments.html?utm_source=facebook&utm_medium=fanpage&utm_campaign=new+article&wa_ibsrc=fanpage

Nuf said!
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 13, 2012 7:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I believe it is an important enough costume to keep listed as is. I do understand why some would question it but I think its recognizable enough on its own, and can lead to some creative presentation if you have the right characters with you. I remember at least one being registered before. Anyway, I think we should keep it. If someone wants to join with it, so be it. Its fine with me.
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 13, 2012 8:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

SoloYT1300 wrote:
Being that we do not have a single member with this costume anymore... I doubt the rebel mission vision or vaules is in any danger if we allow a costume that fits all the requirements of a costume.


The effort we have placed on removing a standard that has been in place for a while now... could be put forward to a topic that is much more important.

We gain nothing by removing the standard. However the potential loss of a member who could have used it as entrance in the RL... for what?

Would we really deny a costume as iconic as Han (carbonite scene) when we allow such characters into the RL like:

Willrow Hood - Ice Cream Maker Guy?

Thats right guys and gals... this guy running for a whopping 1-2 seconds.... around a corner... is a legitimate formal costume. yet I am to believe that a costume that extends into two movies... does not?

Look...

I am not a fan of people who do a half arse job on costumes... and my stay on as an LCJ was short lived because I was way to strict in judging costumes. However I still have yet to see why this is not a costume.

I also do not understand Greg why you keep trying to downtalk the use of the mechandice of this costume in toys? So am I to understand its a lesser costume if it comes with a prop? The Han in carbonite has become just as iconic as a Han pre carbonite... they work together, because its in the same scene.

We have in the past allowed many costumes into the legion costumes that are in the movie... that are not iconic. Costumes do not have to be iconic to be formal. If we did, we would have a ton less costumes. These costumes all have a place at events. Not all events work for every costume, but they all have a place. My base has a Halogram Leia which is absolutly fantastic! If you have seen it in person you would be blown away... yet its a small scene. Like the Icecream maker dude... it's in the movie, hence forth should be allowed as a formal costume.

I really see no merit in removing the standard...
x 2. Hit the nail on the head Bob. Cool
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 13, 2012 8:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

SoloYT1300 wrote:
Being that we do not have a single member with this costume anymore... I doubt the rebel mission vision or vaules is in any danger if we allow a costume that fits all the requirements of a costume.


The effort we have placed on removing a standard that has been in place for a while now... could be put forward to a topic that is much more important.

We gain nothing by removing the standard. However the potential loss of a member who could have used it as entrance in the RL... for what?

Would we really deny a costume as iconic as Han (carbonite scene) when we allow such characters into the RL like:

Willrow Hood - Ice Cream Maker Guy?

Thats right guys and gals... this guy running for a whopping 1-2 seconds.... around a corner... is a legitimate formal costume. yet I am to believe that a costume that extends into two movies... does not?

Look...

I am not a fan of people who do a half arse job on costumes... and my stay on as an LCJ was short lived because I was way to strict in judging costumes. However I still have yet to see why this is not a costume.

I also do not understand Greg why you keep trying to downtalk the use of the mechandice of this costume in toys? So am I to understand its a lesser costume if it comes with a prop? The Han in carbonite has become just as iconic as a Han pre carbonite... they work together, because its in the same scene.

We have in the past allowed many costumes into the legion costumes that are in the movie... that are not iconic. Costumes do not have to be iconic to be formal. If we did, we would have a ton less costumes. These costumes all have a place at events. Not all events work for every costume, but they all have a place. My base has a Halogram Leia which is absolutly fantastic! If you have seen it in person you would be blown away... yet its a small scene. Like the Icecream maker dude... it's in the movie, hence forth should be allowed as a formal costume.

I really see no merit in removing the standard...
x 2. Hit the nail on the head Bob. Cool
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 26, 2012 6:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I will little bump this topic ... because is it still open case ... maybe we should ask via mass email all detach members to vote and express their points here ... (Conley, what do you think? Smile )
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 09, 2012 11:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mass email sent to DB94 members ... now, it is up to whole detachment Very Happy
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 09, 2012 5:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks Blair for sending that email. It looks to me like a landslide vote and one the proper time is up we will be submitting it to the LMO.

Conley
DB94 DCO
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 10, 2012 3:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

To me, I understand the idea behind the initial question, but I don't see the harm in leaving it the way it is.

If we were having a flood of new prospective members trying to "easy" their way into the RL by putting this costume together, then maybe it would be something to look into more seriously.

But seeing as nobody (or VERY few) even have this costume, I don't see where it's hurting anything being listed as an acceptable costume.
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 11, 2012 5:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This thread will remain open until the 15th and then we will lock it and submit the results to the LMO. It is his final call if we delete the standard or leave it as is.

Conley / Nikkos Khann
DB94 DCO
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