About Us Members Unit Listing Events Costuming Resources Forum Contact Us Trading Cards
 

Forum and Costume Controls

   FAQFAQ  SearchSearch  MemberlistMemberlist   UsergroupsUsergroups  medals.php?sid=aef85ca6bcab29a15fe290adeb975277Medals   RegisterRegister   ProfileProfile   Log in to check your private messagesLog in to check your private messages   Log inLog in

       
REMINDER: Do not change your e-mail address yourself. Please read this first for why.

Female Smuggler
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4  Next
 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Rebel Legion Forum Index -> Costume and Prop Making -> Fringe -> Han Solo and Other Smugglers
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
theeviltwin ()
Legion Costume Judge
Legion Costume Judge


Joined: 27 Sep 2009
Posts: 357

Medals: 1 (View more...)
Rebels 4 Japan (Amount: 1)

PostPosted: Sun May 13, 2012 10:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

There are dozens of pilots and Jedi in the six core movies. But I've still heard generic pilots called Luke Skywalker and generic Jedi called Obi Wan at event. That's been at a broad variety of events with a wide range of fans. There's only one instance (I could be wrong though) of the "pilot ground fatigues" in the movies and that is Luke. Without a significant amount of exposure of use by other characters it will always be Luke's costume. It isn't the consistency or recognisability of what it is that is the issue, it is the consistency and recognisability of what it isn't.

It is impossible to create a rule in the charter for every situation. That is why there are humans involved in all processes. While the charter does state that there must be three sources, it doesn't state that the three sources are all you need and that no other considerations matter or need to be addressed.

While I don't equate how smart a person is with how knowledgeable they are in SW, I am well aware that there are fans with the whole range of SW awareness at most event. And that includes fans who are aware that Han's vest is black and not blue. If we approved a generic smuggler, identical to Han but with a blue vest it wouldn't look like a generic smuggler that has met the generic costume's requirements, it would look like an incorrect Han costume that had not met all the Han costume's standards ie. a "sub-standard" Han.

It wasn't my intention to discuss the pilot ground / NR padawan issues and the difficulties in setting and defining an approval standard for them - that is for another section. I was only using it as another example with similar issues that are being worked through.

As an LCJ I just judge costumes on whether they are approved as formal, approved as informal or not approved for RL membership costumes. But while I am an LCJ, I'm also a member like everyone else with opinions like everyone else. Whether you can attend an RL event as a member of the RL is specified by the event coordinator who will state if the event is open to informal and formal costumes or just formal costumes. ECs and BCOs also have the discretionary powers to deny a costume for an event if it is unsuitable. Formal or formal plus informal will depend on the event and event sponsor (I've made the term "event sponsor" up but I couldn't think of a better name and I hope you know what I mean). In addition an event sponsor can impose restrictions on top of formal e.g. requesting pictures of members in costume first. I have seen several events in my local 501st group where they have even specified certain type of stormtroopers only.

I'm aware that what I say here can and will be used as some kind of blanket policy statement or an expression of personal opinion depending on how the reader chooses to take what I've said. I'm no expert at communicating on forums so please keep that in mind! I've not made my personal feelings clear about the majority of what has been discussed here either. So for example please don't interpret an inability to approve a costume as a lack of appreciation of the costume itself and that I wouldn't love to see that costume at a con. And my highest priority is trying to help the maximum number of people having the most fun as possible in a way that honours us all.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Reaper (Ed)
Legion Legacy Member


Joined: 23 Aug 2011
Posts: 183
Location: 501st Legion
Medals: None

PostPosted: Tue May 15, 2012 3:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Blair wrote:
Rebel Legion charter is clear with it:

Article II: Costume Standards

Quote:
Formal: Formal is defined as a costume from one of the six Star Wars films, Expanded Universe, or Lucasfilm Licensed Media (TV, books, games, etc.) as it would appear in those materials. Costumes must be complete, containing all the parts in good working order and appearance. All costume submissions must meet the Costume Standards listed in the Costume Standards Master List, on The Rebel Legion website.
Applicants submitting costumes for any Expanded Universe costume must also submit three (3) LFL licensed sources for the character/costume, in order for it to be considered Formal.



I know the Charter is clear on the issue, I wrote this into the charter. I did check for changes to the Item before I posted my question as well. So I knew that what I wrote in was still in effect.
_________________
If you're going to rescue a Princess, do it in a dress uniform. She is a PRINCESS!!!

Blackstar Squadron
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Reaper (Ed)
Legion Legacy Member


Joined: 23 Aug 2011
Posts: 183
Location: 501st Legion
Medals: None

PostPosted: Tue May 15, 2012 3:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

theeviltwin wrote:
There are dozens of pilots and Jedi in the six core movies. But I've still heard generic pilots called Luke Skywalker and generic Jedi called Obi Wan at event. That's been at a broad variety of events with a wide range of fans. There's only one instance (I could be wrong though) of the "pilot ground fatigues" in the movies and that is Luke. Without a significant amount of exposure of use by other characters it will always be Luke's costume. It isn't the consistency or recognisability of what it is that is the issue, it is the consistency and recognisability of what it isn't.

All this equates to is a run around the charter. This is the same arguement on NOT including a Canon costume seen in the Movies. (the RFT with soft ball cap)

The charter is clear, if you can provide the sources, and they are varified, then the costume should be added. This was the intention of the addition to the charter. the point was to take out the personal opinions of the people in charge at the moment and to make the rule all encompassing.
_________________
If you're going to rescue a Princess, do it in a dress uniform. She is a PRINCESS!!!

Blackstar Squadron
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Reaper (Ed)
Legion Legacy Member


Joined: 23 Aug 2011
Posts: 183
Location: 501st Legion
Medals: None

PostPosted: Wed May 16, 2012 3:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

back on the topic of "custom"smugglers, there is a way you can allow them, and to keep an open "standards" of sorts.

If you require people submitting the costumes to include the inspirations for the costumes, be it Han Solo or Talon Karrde or Mara Jade, you can compair the Costume submitted to those standards. There is also alot of reference out there for Other costumes. Book descriptions of Pilots wearing "ship suits". If you take that to mean coveralls you apply the X-Wing or Rebel Tech standards to the jumsuit. (maybe even the Tie fighter standards from the 501st)

People who do wish to do custom costumes like this already know they won't be recognized. but when in the company of other Star Wars Costumers, they can be accepted, especially in Convention enviornments. You have alot of references available. The entire Cantina scene in ANH, the Ewok Movies, and just about all of the comic lines have featured Smugglers wwho are not Han. Changing Species, colors, or mixing and matching imspirations is where the Fun of creating a custom comes in. As long as ou have Star Wars references or inspirations, then you can Quantify a standard for the costumes.
_________________
If you're going to rescue a Princess, do it in a dress uniform. She is a PRINCESS!!!

Blackstar Squadron
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
theeviltwin ()
Legion Costume Judge
Legion Costume Judge


Joined: 27 Sep 2009
Posts: 357

Medals: 1 (View more...)
Rebels 4 Japan (Amount: 1)

PostPosted: Wed May 16, 2012 8:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

IC-6369 wrote:
theeviltwin wrote:
There are dozens of pilots and Jedi in the six core movies. But I've still heard generic pilots called Luke Skywalker and generic Jedi called Obi Wan at event. That's been at a broad variety of events with a wide range of fans. There's only one instance (I could be wrong though) of the "pilot ground fatigues" in the movies and that is Luke. Without a significant amount of exposure of use by other characters it will always be Luke's costume. It isn't the consistency or recognisability of what it is that is the issue, it is the consistency and recognisability of what it isn't.

All this equates to is a run around the charter. This is the same arguement on NOT including a Canon costume seen in the Movies. (the RFT with soft ball cap)

The charter is clear, if you can provide the sources, and they are varified, then the costume should be added. This was the intention of the addition to the charter. the point was to take out the personal opinions of the people in charge at the moment and to make the rule all encompassing.


As Blair has helpfully quoted the charter does indeed make it clear that three sources are required for an EU costume to be considered formal.

The charter does not state or make it clear that the three sources are everything an EU costume needs in order for it to be considered formal - that there are no other factors, nothing else matters and there is no other reason why a costume could possibly be denied consideration as formal.

If anyone thinks that the charter should be amended, there is a process to propose an amendment.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
theeviltwin ()
Legion Costume Judge
Legion Costume Judge


Joined: 27 Sep 2009
Posts: 357

Medals: 1 (View more...)
Rebels 4 Japan (Amount: 1)

PostPosted: Wed May 16, 2012 8:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

IC-6369 wrote:
back on the topic of "custom"smugglers, there is a way you can allow them, and to keep an open "standards" of sorts.

If you require people submitting the costumes to include the inspirations for the costumes, be it Han Solo or Talon Karrde or Mara Jade, you can compair the Costume submitted to those standards. There is also alot of reference out there for Other costumes. Book descriptions of Pilots wearing "ship suits". If you take that to mean coveralls you apply the X-Wing or Rebel Tech standards to the jumsuit. (maybe even the Tie fighter standards from the 501st)

People who do wish to do custom costumes like this already know they won't be recognized. but when in the company of other Star Wars Costumers, they can be accepted, especially in Convention enviornments. You have alot of references available. The entire Cantina scene in ANH, the Ewok Movies, and just about all of the comic lines have featured Smugglers wwho are not Han. Changing Species, colors, or mixing and matching imspirations is where the Fun of creating a custom comes in. As long as ou have Star Wars references or inspirations, then you can Quantify a standard for the costumes.


This was the only direction I could think of that could possibly lead to a workable standard. It wouldn't be a generic smuggler as such, but a generic Fringer. Whether you introduced yourself as a smuggler, mercenery, gun for hire, etc. would be up to the costumer. And I do appreciate the fun a costumer can have with this and the validity of this type of costumes at the right events. But there are some significant issues that would still need to be overcome before it could be made workable. Here's a few to begin with:

I'm a firm believer in the necessity and value of properly applied discretionary powers but the individual pieces would have to be exactly to the original standard. Allowing different colours is possible. But once you start altering the pockets, tweaking the fasteners, etc. drawing the line would become a nightmare.

When does a generic resemble too much and essentially become an inaccurate canon / formal? This isn't an issue for genuinely uniformed generics with character members such as pilots and Jedi.

How much is too much and how do you assure the accuracy quality of any customisation? Again discretionary judgement powers can only get you so far.

What inspirations are not acceptable (the "red saber" restrictions for generic Fringers)?

Sooner or later the rules will be used (exploited) to try and get a femm(or the male version if there is one)-Solo (as in the femm-trooper) sexualised costume. There is at least one EU character in the Fringe section who wears very revealing clothing, so why couldn't a heavily Han influenced revealling custom Fringer be acceptable?

Assuming there has to be some customisation of a genericified Han type standard, you could quickly get to something like:
Military style pants.
Leather or leather like gun belt
Riding style boots
Collared shirt
Vest, jacket or duster style coat
Blaster.
At which point you could end up with...


I'm not saying these are all impossible issues to deal with. Nor do i think it isn't worth persuing this. But these (and probably other) issues need to be explored and addressed before a generic Fringer standard could be applied. Again I could be wrong but I think it is one of DB94's responsibilities to provide a forum for and champion that proposal / discussion.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Reaper (Ed)
Legion Legacy Member


Joined: 23 Aug 2011
Posts: 183
Location: 501st Legion
Medals: None

PostPosted: Thu May 17, 2012 2:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

theeviltwin wrote:
When does a generic resemble too much and essentially become an inaccurate canon / formal? This isn't an issue for genuinely uniformed generics with character members such as pilots and Jedi.

How much is too much and how do you assure the accuracy quality of any customisation? Again discretionary judgement powers can only get you so far.

What inspirations are not acceptable (the "red saber" restrictions for generic Fringers)?

Sooner or later the rules will be used (exploited) to try and get a femm(or the male version if there is one)-Solo (as in the femm-trooper) sexualised costume. There is at least one EU character in the Fringe section who wears very revealing clothing, so why couldn't a heavily Han influenced revealling custom Fringer be acceptable?

Assuming there has to be some customisation of a genericified Han type standard, you could quickly get to something like:
Military style pants.
Leather or leather like gun belt
Riding style boots
Collared shirt
Vest, jacket or duster style coat
Blaster.
At which point you could end up with...


I'm not saying these are all impossible issues to deal with. Nor do i think it isn't worth persuing this. But these (and probably other) issues need to be explored and addressed before a generic Fringer standard could be applied. Again I could be wrong but I think it is one of DB94's responsibilities to provide a forum for and champion that proposal / discussion.


Continuing your example above as a potential submission, here is how you would reject it, or help the costumer alter the submission:

The gunbelts submitted are obviously from a different Source. Direct use of Another Francise's costumes can not be accepted.

The Use of suspenders on the Middle costume is also not seen in the Star Wars EU or Movies. It is more fitting for a Earth based Genre.

Also visible buttons of any sort on shirts is also not supported. all shirts seen have been of the pull over type or have had a "bib" to cover the buttons.

Also, in this example, specific sources of reference from the Star Wars Movies or EU are missing. In order for a custom Smuggler type costume to be admitted, They are required.


My suggestion for guidelines was not complete, and could be made complete by working together in an open discussion to set them in stone. The above should be good enough to keep out the obvious costumes that belong elsewhere. But on the other hand, since Han's costume was inspired by the western cowboys there WILL be similarities.
_________________
If you're going to rescue a Princess, do it in a dress uniform. She is a PRINCESS!!!

Blackstar Squadron
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Reaper (Ed)
Legion Legacy Member


Joined: 23 Aug 2011
Posts: 183
Location: 501st Legion
Medals: None

PostPosted: Thu May 17, 2012 2:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just retreading the responces here, I want to make it clear that although I feel these custom costumes should be allowed, there is no way they can be considered formal. Custom automatically makes the costume informal.

This will allow a bit of deviation from the exact standards for the costume pieces. There will be some fem-Solo type costumes, but the references will keep the feminization (making up words I think lol) in check. And if you include this all in guidelines rather then standards you may head off fem-trooper like costumes but still allow a costume to be fem.
_________________
If you're going to rescue a Princess, do it in a dress uniform. She is a PRINCESS!!!

Blackstar Squadron
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Masterbean (Brian Bean)
Active Legion Member


Joined: 06 Aug 2008
Posts: 1471

Medals: 1 (View more...)
Rebel Legion Supporter (Amount: 1)

PostPosted: Fri May 25, 2012 11:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

you do realize that the ONLY reason to have a FORMAL costume is to be able to go to an LFL event. Those events typically only want things from the movies and not the EU.
So...it's not like we're not trying to stop people's creativity, it's more that there's a time and place for it. Like say, Conventions as you mentioned. If people want to make a Star Wars inspired costume, great! Do that, costume how you like, this is for enjoyment. However, realize that you won't be able to submit a costume you created that is only inspired by and not an as close as possible reproduction of. That's what Formal exists for, close reproduction of...Maybe you could make a splinter group like the Mandalorian's have, or now the dark Jedi's have. Then you could do whatever you want, they except Star Wars inspired costumes.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Yahoo Messenger
Reaper (Ed)
Legion Legacy Member


Joined: 23 Aug 2011
Posts: 183
Location: 501st Legion
Medals: None

PostPosted: Sat May 26, 2012 12:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Masterbean wrote:
you do realize that the ONLY reason to have a FORMAL costume is to be able to go to an LFL event. Those events typically only want things from the movies and not the EU.
So...it's not like we're not trying to stop people's creativity, it's more that there's a time and place for it. Like say, Conventions as you mentioned. If people want to make a Star Wars inspired costume, great! Do that, costume how you like, this is for enjoyment. However, realize that you won't be able to submit a costume you created that is only inspired by and not an as close as possible reproduction of. That's what Formal exists for, close reproduction of...Maybe you could make a splinter group like the Mandalorian's have, or now the dark Jedi's have. Then you could do whatever you want, they except Star Wars inspired costumes.


The reason Informal costumes were included here was to avoid having splinter groups forming. And to allow people to show their creativity HERE among the formal costumes. This was one of the biggest differences between the Rebel Legion and 501st when we were forming it.

A case in point, that I've used before in this discussion is the Custom pilot costumes. The Warhawks (before the Squadron left the RL) developed a Custom Pilot costume inspired by what is seen on screen, but with different color combinations. At one time, 4 members of the Squadron had submitted and had approved (as informal costumes) these flightsuits. Without checking, I'd say at least 2 of them are still approved informal costumes.

I had also submitted and had approved a Hawkbat Custome X-Wing pilot costume. This was done when I was RL LCO. Again, all the elements of the Costume were there, but the colors were all original.

I am suggesting the same principle be extended to people who do want to have their custom Fringe costumes recognized. You can apply the standards from the costume elements to the custom costume and approve it as informal.

When the Fringe catagory was created (during a costume reorganization, again during my tenure as LCO) I created a guide for custom fringe costumes. When I left the legion, this was forgotten, along with a few things I had done.

So I do understand what the formal catagory is for. I helped define it.
_________________
If you're going to rescue a Princess, do it in a dress uniform. She is a PRINCESS!!!

Blackstar Squadron
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
SoloYT1300 (Robert Kohn)
Active Legion Member


Joined: 17 Feb 2007
Posts: 5809

Medals: 5 (View more...)
Hurricane Sandy Supporter (Amount: 1)

PostPosted: Sat May 26, 2012 1:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I personally fo not have an issue with custome costumes... they are a ton of fun.

I have a Kilted Han costume for that reason... for cons and what not. I would never assume to add it to my roster of costumes for it really has no place on these boards... other than for fun.

I understand the creation of informal costumes and am a big proponet for the catagory. However the informal catagory has typically been for people who did not meet the mark for formal costumes. Being that there is no Formal catagory for Custom Fringe costumes there can't be custom Informal costumes.

Will it always be this way? Who knows maybe if there was enough support for a custom Fringe catagory maybe one could propose it like the Rebel Cheerleaders or something... I just do not see how we could allow Custome Fringe costumes into the ranks as formal. There simply is no way we would be able to control the quality without Generic Jedi type standards. It works for the Jedi... just not sure it would work on Smugglers.

Bob
_________________
RL Han Solo Archive and information
Han Archive via Photbucket
My Holster
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Lichtbringer ()



Joined: 23 Feb 2011
Posts: 218
Location: Germany
Medals: None

PostPosted: Sat May 26, 2012 2:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Masterbean wrote:
you do realize that the ONLY reason to have a FORMAL costume is to be able to go to an LFL event. Those events typically only want things from the movies and not the EU.


Maybe in the US. For nearly everywhere else around the world the only reason to have a formal is to be approved as a RL-member.

What do you think how many will ever visit a official LFL-event? Most will go to small local costume events, mall openings, local cinema events, ....... and other small events - that´s their only opportunity to wear the stuff in public.
_________________
Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side.

Have a nice day,
Michael
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
JediMasterMark (Mark Jones)
Active Legion Member


Joined: 15 Jul 2010
Posts: 1908
Location: Harrisburg, PA
Medals: 1 (View more...)
Rebels 4 Japan (Amount: 1)

PostPosted: Sat May 26, 2012 3:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bob brings up the best point for allowing something like this - in order to have informal custom Fringers, we'd have to first have formal custom fringers. And I would also pass a side issue along - we accept light side costumes, by Charter as well. We've built things into the Jedi standard to prevent 'Sith' from slipping in - how do you define that for a custom smuggler? Nothing short of a backstory, imo...

Jedi, like you all have mentioned, are easy enough to blend in and customize because they all have a base style to start from (check out today's announcement in the Jedi forum if interested). Is there enough data to glean a generic custom Fringer? Ed mentioned there was something previously about this - could it be resurrected? Or does someone want to lead the charge to create a custom Fringer?

Talk's cheap - start with a standard and we can go from there. It's either that, or I dig Bob in a kilt. han solo
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Reaper (Ed)
Legion Legacy Member


Joined: 23 Aug 2011
Posts: 183
Location: 501st Legion
Medals: None

PostPosted: Sun May 27, 2012 1:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have already started the "stadards" I offered them several posts back, and then answered the question regarding submitting Firefly costumes.

As for the old Guidelines, that info is liong gone. I don't even have the info I posted all those years ago. but I am willing to work with the members here to rebuild it all.
_________________
If you're going to rescue a Princess, do it in a dress uniform. She is a PRINCESS!!!

Blackstar Squadron
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Hank solo ()



Joined: 07 Mar 2012
Posts: 73
Location: Maryland
Medals: None

PostPosted: Wed Sep 12, 2012 4:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Havok69 wrote:

(If so, I propose a double standard: no dude Slave Leias!)

Razz


Yes, my eyes are still trying to recover form the 3 Dude-slave leias I ran into at CVI! There ought to be a law against this!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Rebel Legion Forum Index -> Costume and Prop Making -> Fringe -> Han Solo and Other Smugglers All times are GMT
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4  Next
Page 3 of 4

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You can post calendar events in this forum
The Rebel Legion is a worldwide Star Wars costuming organization comprised of and operated by Star Wars fans. While not sponsored by Lucasfilm Ltd., it is Lucasfilm's preferred volunteer Rebel costuming group. Star Wars, its characters, costumes, and all associated items are the intellectual property of Lucasfilm. © 2014 Lucasfilm Ltd. & ™ All rights reserved. Used under authorization.


Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group