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ANH DL-44 question
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Is it acceptable to have a modded rubies DL-44 blaster?
Yes, for both formal, and non formal
73%
 73%  [ 11 ]
Yes, but only for non formal events
13%
 13%  [ 2 ]
No, just for halloween
6%
 6%  [ 1 ]
Other
6%
 6%  [ 1 ]
Users Voted : 15
Total Votes : 15
This poll has expired.
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Blair (Vlastimil Sprta)
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 23, 2012 6:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lichtbringer wrote:


Blair wrote:
Ok ... so, if I will be speak up, that "denix replicas, resin, etd. should not be approved - because are not screen accurate - they are not -> they are replicas ... only original mauser is good enough" ... so, what do you think about it? -> hmm ... you will say, that I am probably crazy, etc. -> each one of us, have our limits where we seen screen accuracy ...


Pure exaggeration - when there are no real arguments itīs a often used way - but it doesnīt work.

Why not resin, as long as it is molded from a good replica? The material is one thing, metal is sure nicer, but a good resinbuild looks not that different.

"I" donīt use Denix, i use MGCs (the same as most Solo blasters were build on), my E-11 is a real deac, my Leia DDC has a real deac Margolin waiting.......
But .... the denix is not that bad, just a few steps away and itīs hard for many people to see the difference. Same is possible with resin. But not with a Kenner, due to itīs wrong shape.


LoL ...

... it is not "pure exaggeration" ... it is example ... you did not get a point -> it is not about "denix", "resin", "rubbies", "kenner" ... it is about
Quote:
"each one of us, have our limits where we seen screen accuracy ..."


... somebody see it knob on blaster ... somebody see it on correct shirt pattern ... somebody see it on correct boots ... somebody see it on each seam of pants ... etc. ...


---

AND ONCE AGAIN: This whole discussion is ... how to say ... wasting of time ... because it is job of LCJ - how he wanna propose, set up and interpret standards ...

... and he already spoke about blasters Wink
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Havok69 ()
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 23, 2012 7:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

KA-513 wrote:
G: For sake of argument, let's say that we did bump out the toy guns from the list of approvability. What happens to those of us who were approved with painted toys? Grandfathered in? Dropped to informal? Invalidated costume? If it's either of the last two, what happens to those (like me) who only have that one formal costume? Kicked out? Busted down to forum user/archived member? Can we say "Custom Mando Purge"?


If the standards change, then yes, re-judge. I would say that anyone who doesn't meet the new requirements would get kicked down to informal, there doesn't need to be a "purge." New information may be discovered, but keep in mind these movies are set in stone (regardless of what Lucas would like to do) If you get the costume right first time, then you'll never need to change it and will pass any subsequent re-judgings.
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KA-513 ()
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 23, 2012 8:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Havok, from my experience, the proposed Standards updates are typically because new or updated reference materials became available, not because someone (or a group of people) decided that they no longer want to allow X item to be eligible for Y costume.

In terms of costumes being kicked down to informal, again, what if that particular costume is the only formal costume that member has? The Charter states that members must have a formal costume and actively troop at least once per year to maintain membership. If, in my not so hypothetical example of a member with only one formal costume, that costume gets kicked to informal, according to strict interpretation of the Charter, they would no longer be eligible to maintain their membership in the Legion. Ego, again, by strict interpretation of the Charter, they would in fact be kicked out, or "purged". Even if not, not everyone has the funds to buy an expensive resin or metal prop. Now, if there were a vendor out there who made accurate resin or metal prop blasters at around 20-30USD, then that would be a different story. As it stands now, there unfortunately isn't for the troopers and smugglers. Jedi can, however, go to the nearest home improvement store and buy plumbing parts and follow online tutorials to build a cool lightsabre hilt for around the cost of a toy lightsabre, which is why the Jedi Standards disallow toy lightsabres.

Lichtbringer, looks like you've had some fun experiences. Smile I probably should have qualified that statement with "from my own experiences" And you are right, slippery when wet does describe this. In terms of costumebase outfits being approvable, surprisingly, some are. The RFT is approvable, the X-Wing/Orange flightsuit is(some changes suggested), and on the 501st side, the imperial crewman and officers are. Again, some changes are suggested(and in the case of the officers, required). Some of them are not as cost-effective as buying the parts/fabric and creating them, but for someone with no sewing skills, they can be made to work. As always, though, Your Mileage May Vary.

As far as the rejudging goes, yes. There is the Old Frame Project going on(which is why current Standards are frozen), for members with costumes in the old frames. I believe the current percentage of member costumes in those frames is somewhere around five percent, and my (limited) understanding is the judges are requesting current photos to make sure everything is up to par. I'm not sure what's happening with those that aren't, but I would assume that those who do have the older frames also have a more current formal costume. But I truthfully don't know at this point.
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SoloYT1300 (Robert Kohn)
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 23, 2012 8:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

They would not get kicked out... no one gets kicked out due to their costume being downgraded.

They are alotted time to bring their costume back up to formal standard... I believe 1 year is time alotted.

Once a year is up the membere then gets downdgraded to reserve I believe.
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Havok69 ()
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 23, 2012 8:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

KA-513 wrote:
if there were a vendor out there who made accurate resin or metal prop blasters at around 20-30USD, then that would be a different story.


Resin props are almost always inexpensive. Doopydoos sells a complete resin kit for $60. Costumebase customers paid the same amount for their holsters, so that figure is certainly not out of their price range...
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 23, 2012 10:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

changes to the standards are never retroactive. once you're in, you're in. if the standards get changed after you've been accepted, then this doesn't effect you... you get 'grandfathered' in..

...EXCEPT in the case of that legion-wide "rejudging" of old costumes. this has happened ONCE in the last twelve years -- it's still underway. it's been going on for over a year, and its still not done. I can't see this happening again anytime soon in the next 12 years. Wink

any future changes to the standards will only effect new members who haven't applied yet. if you're already a member, you won't have to get your costume "rejudged", if/when the standards get changed to include better blasters. Wink hehe

you ONLY need to be "Rejudged" if your profile pic is in that old rectangular frame, mentioned above.
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 25, 2012 7:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've watched this thread and the previous discussion on raising the Han standards. I've also been a member of this club from the beginning and have been on the Command Staff in some capacity for almost that entire time.

I believe that you are going about this the wrong way.

Today, amendments to the charter require that the member to actually write the amendment and jump through a few hoops to get something to a vote. In the old days, we just had a forum for discussing charter issues, and it was useless. People argued but nothing productive ever came out of these discussions.

Now of course we are talking about the costume standards, not the charter, but we appear to be having the same problem: lots of discussion but nothing productive coming out of it. I don't see either thread getting any closer to a set of revised costume standards for Han Solo. Does anyone else see progress being made towards any kind of goal?
The way we solved those charter issues was to make people write out their own charter amendments. This gave the subsequent discussions focus. Now they actually accomplish something.
The same solution will work here: Write out what you think the CRL should be, discuss for a bit, and put it to a vote.

Some of you have suggested changes to the system. Write these out as specific charter amendments and propose them.

In order for these kinds of discussions to be productive they have to be focused.

Bob has suggested that the real problem is that you have to have one Formal costume to be a member, and this puts pressure on keeping the standards lower to make it easier to join. He (and others) have suggested removing that requirement and turning Formal costumes into a kind of "elite" status like in the 501st.

My only problem with that is that there is too much leeway with Informal costumes. An Informal costume can be many different things.

The Formal/Informal terminology needs to change. It's a holdover from the old days when those terms meant something completely different. So many different concepts have been shoehorned into that terminology over the years that it's now confusing.
  1. Originally, Formal and Informal were events-related terms akin to Formal/Casual dress codes. At a Formal event, one was expected to be in their Sunday best. Informal events were more casual, so things like base patches, Elvis Solo, Santa Claus hats or even zombie X-Wing pilots were acceptable, even encouraged depending on the event.
  2. When we actually started to write costume requirements, Formal also meant "more accurate" and Informal meant "less accurate." Somewhat similar to "elite" and "standard" status in the 501st.
  3. Of course, Informal also covers obscure EU costumes that have fewer than three sources.
So that's three very different definitions for those terms. The purpose of creating terminology, acronyms, and slang is to make it easier to communicate. The Formal/Informal terminology fails to do this. Let's consider some examples:
  • You're at an event, and a prospective member is asking about membership requirements. Explain Formal/Informal to him/her in one sentence. Don't leave anything out, and don't use run-on sentences.
  • You're setting up an event. It's a huge Christmas parade in a major city. There will be live TV coverage and 250,000 spectators. It's high profile so you want canon costumes only; no obscure EU costumes, unused concept art, etc. That makes this a Formal event under the third definition. But it's a Christmas parade; you want members to get into the holiday spirit with some santa hats, decorations, and what have you. Under the first definition that makes this an Informal event. What do you do?

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PostPosted: Sat Feb 25, 2012 1:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Your right on the money Matt...

The issues are in the phrases formal and informal... and membership requirements.

Standards can and should be discussed at the detachment level so something can come of it. The idea being that it is one of the jobs of the detachment to maintain the standards and update them where needed.

The issue regarding membership requirements (IE formal vs informal)... is a Charter Amendment issue, and needs to go thru the LXO as a proposal if you want anything to come of it.

So if you guys have the energy I would highly recomend taking the topics that deal with costume changes in the standards to the detachment... and charter issues to the LXO.

Bob
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 25, 2012 6:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

here is the way Standards should be looked at. There is no maximum degree of accuracy being implimented, but there is a MINIMUM being put in place to maintain the reputation of the Organization.

There are legitimate reasons why some people can not reach Above screen accurate. And yes, I mean above what was seen on screen. you (generic You, not singling anyone else out) have to realize Close enough can be Perfect for some people. And that Close enough will always be good enough for the general public. a Complete Rubies Stormtrooper or Vader (deliberally avoiding Rebel costumes here) are laughed at when submitted to the 501st. but you outfit a platoon of Stormtroopers with these costumes and put them into Times Square for the day and EVERYONE will want pictures with them and brag about being with them.

The group was not created to be an organization solely concerned with being the good arm of LFL (again placing the 501st as the bad guys) but as a sister group for the 501st to be there for the public and mirror their Charity work. the LFL events were a bonus for the inner geek in all of us.

And for those that don't know, I was there when the Rebel LEgion was formed. I was part of the organizational group when we were gonna be called the Rebel Alliance. I also served as Echo Base Commander for 3 or 4 years and LCO for 2 YEars.
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SoloYT1300 (Robert Kohn)
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 25, 2012 7:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hey Ed,

I do appreciate everything you and others have done for the organization... I really do more than most. I have had the pleasure of serving on council now and can truly understand the other side of the coin. I understand what you are saying, and agree for the most part.

The RL's intention then and now has not changed too much in its design. However different our costume quality has changed our goals are still the same. We are still the same nerds now as you guys were then. We all love the movie.

The way I look at it is we are a group made up of many kinds of people. People who want to just troop, people who focus mostly on charity and those who want to take the costume to the next level.

Yes our costumes are much better than was ever on set in the making of the movie... from storm troopers with duct tape, to Leia's Belt that literally fell apart in the trash compactor. The costumes we make last longer and look better in person than the costumes for the movie ever did. That said it is easy to say we go too far sometimes on the costumes, but for many on these boards that is exactly what we like to do... make costumes that drop peoples jaws.

I do think the RL has a responsibility to all its members and with the system as it is, makes it extremely difficult to appease all of the members without major changes. There are no maximum standerds this is true, but people tend to be goal oriented and if there are elite standards the chances are we will have people who will want to obtain them... and thats a good thing. Great costuming is one of the things the RL is about... not just charity.

Example;

With standards as we have them now we maximize membership without too much of a gig on the quality of the costume. However we still are unable to have 100% movie costumes standards without jeopardizing the membership numbers. So we really cannot raise the standards without ruining our membership numbers.

What I am trying to say is like our sister group the 501st we should consider something along the lines of an Elite costuming goal. Like the Lancer, Centurion, or Emperor status... respectfully.

It would not hurt if we took it to another level... something for our members to shoot for... formal is simply not enough for some. However without an actual goal, members tend to not strive for perfection. If we were to develop a goal that goes beyond formal there would be members that would shoot for it. The information is out there, we just need to set down the path.

The only issue I can think of creating such a costume category is how some people will feel left behind because their costumes are not considered the best. Not everyone will be able to maintain such a quality and that is why it should not be part of obtaining membership, but to focus on those who want to go to the next level of costuming quality.

The RL has something for everyone... and the extreme costumers in our group should be allowed to shoot for something much higher in title other than formal.

Just my opinion...

Bob
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 25, 2012 9:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I never had a problem with that, My goal back when I was a member, was to make sure that people didn't think they had to match every stich.

The Biggest problem I've always had are the people who think if it's not perfect, it doesn't belong. I love the arguement for raising standards that goes "if we had higher standards then we'd get more LFL events" but the reality of it 90% of the time is the lower standards were more then good enough for LFL to include in official events.

Hell, back in the day when we did the M&M event in times Square with the 3/4 X-Wing and Anthony Daniels in the Actual C-3PO costume, half of those costumes would no longer be allowed to join today. Mine included. Yet LFL praised us. You have to beware of raising standards just to raise standards.

I wear laced Combat boots in my X-Wing costume, no longer approved here. But George Lucas himself complemtned the costume when I presented him the honorary membership. Are the boots correct, no, absolutely not. Do you loose the image presented to the public (or even LFL)? No. The reason for the boots, I have very thick legs and ankles. I can't comfotably wear Jack boots or any pull on boots. Hell, for my Original BSG boots, I need to have ALOT of mods done to them by a leather worker. It's not cheap, but for the BSG boots, there is no way around them, just as there would be no way around it for a costume like Han.

Laying out Higher standards is always fine, as long as it doesn't effect membership.

My opinion at least.
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 25, 2012 9:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yeah... I am in agreement there... as long as it does not effect membership.

A while back I proposed that the charter would be changed to allow informal costums to gain full membership into the RL preserving the Formal standards. I never understood why we had formal as a means to get into the RL. I have used the anology many times... its like hitting a home run your first at bat... extremely hard!

That proposal met stiff resistance so I have been working other angles ever since. One of those we just pushed thru... allowing non formal members access to costume parts via our for sale section.

The key to the future of the RL is retention, new membership, and high standards! To do all of those we need to change the format IMO.

I am always up for suggestions on how we as a group can maintain numbers yet improve costume quality at the top end. I really think we can have both... the key is the Elite costume standards or something along those lines.

Bob
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Last edited by SoloYT1300 (Robert Kohn) on Sun Feb 26, 2012 2:35 am; edited 1 time in total
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Reaper (Ed)
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 25, 2012 9:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

That informal thing happened after I quit the legion. During my tenure as a member and leader, you could join with formal or informal. Informal was always encouraged to work up to formal (what costume is ever really done?) but if you wanted to be a convention member and just be part of a larger group presence, then that was fine as well.

in my opinion, a mistake, but as I see it, it's part of the move to make the RL more of a clone of the 501st (which doesn't have an informal costume catagory) then retaining an individual identiy working with the 501st.

I know I personally fought hard against the implications we were just a 501st clone group from the beginning and I embraced those difference. Hell, I had 2 informal costumes that never had a chance of being formal (custom smuggler and a Hawkbat Fighter pilot) both were fun to wear at a convention.

Hell, one of the series 1 Trading cards featured the Hawkbat and Warhawk Squadron leaders (LCO and LXO at the time) in our Informal costumes.
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 25, 2012 11:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I believe my view on things is mostly misunderstood as i probably mix my 2 main intentions when arguing.


This is my very private own opinion, how i see things - without forcing it to the group, just my opinion how things should be handled:

"I" think the main goal should be to have a costume you like, and bring that to the highest possible level (whatever your wallet/references/skills set as this level) - instead to collect as much sub-optimal costumes as possible. I understand/accept when someone sees it another way, i just think the world of today is overly full of mediocrity. To strive for something above that is always a good thing, and todays people are not often enough encouraged to try such. "Itīs good enough" is not always good enough - just "acceptable".

But as itīs my opinion it affects noone, unless someone feels caught in being lazy and taking shortcuts, and then notices he doesnt like to be caught. Wink


And this is my opinion which i think would help the RL as a whole - so itīs something i think should be changed:

The actual system makes it hard to become member, as only certain costumes can bring you the membership, not neccessary quality (too, but not alone). To ease things the standards are not that high, but still a hindrance if you donīt want to run around in one of that costumes. You are forced to spend (and waste) money just to buy "the ticket". After beeing in you can make other stuff - in low quality, in high quality, in exceptional quality - but first you have to make and pay for one of the entrance-costumes, if you use it or not.

If the system would be changed in the way that not only these specific formal costumes can bring membership, and all others are called informal ...... without making a statement for their quality ..... it would ease things up for everyone.

If:

Recruit - a costume that was approved for membership - could be a Waterfarmer, a Solo, a Padme, a generic Coruscant Citizen, whatever ..... but no matter what, it has to accomplish the basic requested quality. (Whatever level of quality is asked for to become member)

Rebel - the same costume-types, but with a higher level of quality. Minimum for official events.

Hero - only costumes from the movies, accurate as possible (up to a certain extend). Not needed for anything, just a honorific title for those that have choosen to go the extra mile and costs for accuracy. The mad nerds of the nerds, the nitpicking ones that strive for highest possible goals.


That way there would be a massive ease in the process to become member, without loosing quality. Just via the bigger amount of costumes being acceptable for membership.

And coexistent there would be a possibility to use the money that now has to be spent on the forced "entrance-costume" for making a higher quality choosen costume.
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 28, 2012 1:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

How about this? (I'm concentrating on ANH Han)

Han Solo Costume Standards


Han Solo (Episode IV: A New Hope)

Required Items:

1. Black twill vest with 4 channels/loops at the back yoke, 1 large back pocket and 4 front pockets; the upper right pocket must have quarter moon shape in the upper right corner, with a smaller rectangular pocket on top of the larger pocket. Vest should be waist length.
2. Cream color long-sleeve shirt with placket v-neck and short mandarin collar.
3. Dark blue or navy pocketless pants with accurate red Corellian bloodstripes
4. Black or dark brown leather belt punctured entirely with rows of three holes and a bronze two-prong buckle
5. Black equestrian-type knee-high boots. (leather or leather-look; no laces).
6. Accurate leather gunbelt and buckles with capped holster, correct tools and proper droid caller.
7. DL-44 blaster; either accurate resin cast or Denix\MGC based metal version of the "Hero" or "Greedo Killer", unless local laws prohibit or strongly discourage carrying anything that looks like a firearm. Repainted toys judged only for Informal status.

Formal Requirements: (Must have 3 to be formal)

1. Pintuck down the center front of each pant leg
2. Riding seam around the seat and down the back of each pant leg.
3. Embroidered bloodstripes. (about 1 inch wide by 1/4 inch high, with only 1/8 of an inch of space between each embroidered section)
4. No visible zipper on the boots.

Optional Items:

1. two-tone cognac\brown or yellow\black driving gloves.
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