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Jaden Korr - Twi'lek version approvable?

 
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Jabari ()
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 30, 2019 2:13 am    Post subject: Jaden Korr - Twi'lek version approvable? Reply with quote

I realize this is a tricky question, as I originally asked 6 years ago....but standards have changed since then, so I may as well ask again...

So here's the deal. Jaden Korr is the player character from the Jedi Academy game, way back in the day. Old canon eventually made Jaden a boring generic human male, but in the game itself you could choose from a variety of species and either male or female...and the old EU is no longer canon anyway. The costume you could choose a head, torso, and legs, however, the one I want to do is clearly intended to be the same outfit, and the pieces are not otherwise customizable (only Jaden's skin color and choice of lightsabers, for Twi'lek.) I have screenshots of every angle of the costume, and can write standards.

Is it possible to get Jaden approved?

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Jabari ()
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 30, 2019 2:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

More references:












Last edited by Jabari () on Mon Sep 30, 2019 2:47 am; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 30, 2019 2:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jaden Korr (Red and Gold Outfit Twi'lek) Costume Standards Draft:


Cape:
- cape covers the top of the shoulders, reaching just above the point of the bust and covers the shirt's cap sleeves when arms are down
- reddish brown suede-like material
- embossed gold screen accurate design on lower edge
- gold clasp and neck detail
- seam along top of shoulder

Shirt:
- medium gray shirt with cap sleeves (shorter than the cape) and bare midriff
- embossed gold detail around the ribs with hidden closure

Belt/Tabard:
- belt/tabard extends to the upper half of the thigh in front and back, and is long enough to cover both crotch and buttocks
- base layer is the same reddish brown suede-like material as the cape
- embossed gold layer with screen-accurate detailing, with hidden closure. Gold section reaches the full length of the tabard in the front, and is short in back.
- may have one or two hidden saber hooks at the sides.

Pants:
- black or dark charcoal gray leggings/pants with open lacing detail at hip
- gold and black braid along outer leg seam
- round padded knee area with gold edging

Boots:
- black shoes with silver toe detail
- boot tops have gold details up the center shin, along the top edge, and down the center back
- black lacing crosses around the back of the leg from the front gold plate. Ends of laces are hidden.

Gloves:
- reddish brown suede-like material
- gold detailing at back of hand

Lekku:
- Black leather-like headwrap
- four gold embossed lekku jewelry pieces with accurate detailing
- each lekku has three geometric tattoos.

Makeup:
- teal blue Twi'lek has gold lipstick and gray eyeshadow
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ionicdesign (Michael)
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 30, 2019 2:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Game characters can be approved, without customization.

Where this version of Jaden is customized, probably not.

Certainly many Twi'lek Jedi are out there with reference and can be approved.
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Jabari ()
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 30, 2019 3:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ionicdesign wrote:
Certainly many Twi'lek Jedi are out there with reference and can be approved.


Um...as far as I can tell, for Jedi, it's pretty much Aayla Secura, Finn Ertay, or regular generic Jedi with lekku stuck on.
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ionicdesign (Michael)
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 30, 2019 3:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jabari wrote:
ionicdesign wrote:
Certainly many Twi'lek Jedi are out there with reference and can be approved.


Um...as far as I can tell, for Jedi, it's pretty much Aayla Secura, Finn Ertay, or regular generic Jedi with lekku stuck on.


Finn Ertay would be a good one, I don't know that anyone has made that one:



but no, there are many, including but not limited to Rachi Sitra, B'ink Utrila, Xiaan Amersu, Yadira Ban, Kora Ryo, Sammo Quid, Tasha Ryo, Alema Rar, Numa Rar, et al and yes you could also follow the Generic Jedi standards with a correct Twi'lek headpiece as well.
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Jabari ()
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 01, 2019 2:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, that's great and all, but a.) I have much better references for Jaden than anything that exists for most of those comic and book ones and b.) none of those Twi'leks are the one I've been wanting to make for *16 years*.



I'd just really hate to have to give up a RL trooping opportunity to have a chance to wear a screen-accurate LucasArts designed costume...not a whole lot of other places for me to wear a Twi'lek.
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ionicdesign (Michael)
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 01, 2019 9:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

As it is a favorite I would encourage you to make it, it could be a lot of fun, I'm sure would be great at cons. The RL charter doesn't allow such to be approved though, so if you make it do it for you first and foremost.

http://newsite.rebellegion.com/legion-charter/
Article II: Costuming Standards
Quote:
5. For video games: Player generated/edited costumes for game characters (those that are customizable) are not eligible for consideration for Rebel Legion membership.

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Lora Skywalker ()
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 08, 2019 7:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I like the costume; it looks great. Smile

I think it also depends on how you define 'customizable'. I know game sets have been allowed before as long as you couldn't change the color or other details of the costume, but where different standard sets could be chosen. So it might warrant further discussion with the LMO and detachment since this does seem to have different set standard pieces.
The race and color would then have less importance and more variety, but the costume pieces would stay the same regardless.

Doesn't sound so different from the Relnex jedi to me.
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JediDWH (Lisa Curtis Saunders)
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 10, 2019 9:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm actually going to agree with Lora here- the original intent of the 'no customizations' caveat was to avoid things like Star Wars Galaxies allowing pink Tusken Raiders, or things like the custom dye color packs you can use in SWTOR. If it appears as the game gives it to you, go forth, it just has to be a fully matching set.

So my SWTOR main's current outfit, which is Satele Shan but BRIGHT PURPLE wouldn't be allowed, but I'd lean on the side of allowing this, or any other gender/species/outfit combo of Jaden Korr.
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Shay Kenobi ()
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 10, 2019 10:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The only suggestion I might make is to ensure you have a definitive answer from the LMO before launching this endeavour.

If you are passionate about creating it regardless of whether it could be approved, then nothing lost but if the project relies on acceptance to the Legion, I’d be getting a ruling first.

To be honest, the basic premise of not allowing customisation is that a character depicted in a game that has a number of different options is created , to some degree, by the imagination of the player. Not necessarily one that would appear anywhere else in the universe and is such, not canon.

Whilst not allowing pink Tusken raiders is an obvious example of what can’t be approved the territory between “ none and some” then becomes completely subjective. What is ok , what is too much ?

I don’t want to speak for the entire LMO team but I suspect the approach will be that this is a slippery slope and the charter is quite clear on what ducks need to be lined up for costume admission to the Legion.
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 10, 2019 10:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

As Michael and Shay have stated, per charter we don't allow customizable game characters. To me this is anything that allows you to switch up color or costumes etc. The charter states:

Quote:

Costumes eligible for Rebel Legion membership, that do not have written/posted costume standards must include:
1. Two or more images, head to toe, showing the front and back of the costume being created OR a 360-degree head-to-toe turnaround of the character.
2. Additional images may be included to show detail of the costume being created.
3. Resource material may come from any LFL/Disney licensed sources for the character/costume being created.
4. Additional costume details may come from a detailed text-based description, but must have an accompanying visual reference to be considered for creating a Rebel Legion approved costume.
5. For video games: Player generated/edited costumes for game characters (those that are customizable) are not eligible for consideration for Rebel Legion membership.


In this case, I have to agree that I believe the costume falls under the customizable category per RL charter and is not eligible for membership.

The only way would be if there was additional reference that is non game customizable.

Don't hesitate to reach out to me for a conversation about this.
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JediDWH (Lisa Curtis Saunders)
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 10, 2019 11:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I understand you get the final call on this one, however I'd like to point out as someone who was involved in the discussion around that charter provision that it was not intended to be used in this way. It was specifically referring to costumes you can edit- you cannot change the color, look, or combination of any of Jaden's outfits, and the outfits are identical no matter what species you put them on.

Just a matter of difference in perspective, but my opinion is unchanged.

This honestly throws all customizable video game leads into question- Revan has three different starting outfits you can choose from and like 12 different heads each between two genders. And most people don't even use the starting outfit, they go with the KOTOR-style Jedi robes you pick up later, or the Star Forge robes. If you could edit colors and choose more granularly than "torso" and "legs" then maybe, but there's a fixed number of combinations and you can't really deviate from what the game designers intended.

I mean I guess there is some art floating around somewhere from the canceled Jaden book where you can be human male dude Jaden, but that feels quite a lot more limiting than the Legion has traditionally been with video game leads.
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Jabari ()
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 26, 2019 5:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

JediDWH wrote:
I understand you get the final call on this one, however I'd like to point out as someone who was involved in the discussion around that charter provision that it was not intended to be used in this way. It was specifically referring to costumes you can edit- you cannot change the color, look, or combination of any of Jaden's outfits, and the outfits are identical no matter what species you put them on.

Just a matter of difference in perspective, but my opinion is unchanged.

This honestly throws all customizable video game leads into question- Revan has three different starting outfits you can choose from and like 12 different heads each between two genders. And most people don't even use the starting outfit, they go with the KOTOR-style Jedi robes you pick up later, or the Star Forge robes. If you could edit colors and choose more granularly than "torso" and "legs" then maybe, but there's a fixed number of combinations and you can't really deviate from what the game designers intended.

I mean I guess there is some art floating around somewhere from the canceled Jaden book where you can be human male dude Jaden, but that feels quite a lot more limiting than the Legion has traditionally been with video game leads.


This is it, exactly - for Twi'lek Jaden, you have the following choices: head, torso, legs, and color. Color only affects your skin and changes nothing on the costume. The heads are lekku down or coiled versions of the same 4 headwraps on the same face. The torsos, legs, and heads for Twi'lek Jaden cannot be altered, and while there are several choices, there are sets that are clearly intended to go together - the matching gold lekku sleeves to go with the gold on this torso, and the black pants match for this outfit, for example. I can go back and screencap every outfit if necessary. I think the case could be made that Twi'lek Jaden just has several outfits, and in order to be acceptable, one would have to pick one of the set outfits, just like KOTOR Jedi have to pick a set (the red KOTOR robes have to have the orange pants, blue goes with blue, etc).

(Jaden does also have one outfit you automatically get and can't choose or alter in any way beyond what head you chose, which is Hoth snow gear. Which I could do, but the maroon/gold outfit is more fun. Smile )

Like KOTOR, you can choose your lightsaber(s), but unlike KOTOR, you can't add any accessories or gear.

As for other references, if you play as a human male, as the old canon eventually made Jaden, you could actually alter the colors of his robes in addition to changing his face/skin color in the game, so his costume WAS customizable. So "old canon" Jaden is probably not acceptable!

If you google image search "Jaden Korr Twi'lek" or "Jedi Academy Twi'lek", almost everyone who posted the maroon/gold version had the same torso/legs combination, and either the gold jewelry lekku or the same black wrap lekku.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JzssPFAwf8g
https://swfanon.fandom.com/wiki/Jaden_Korr_(PutYaGunsOn)
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=201017538
https://greatgamer.ru/images/screenshots/6951/screenshot_star_wars_jedi_knight__jedi_academy_65.jpg
https://greatgamer.ru/screenshots/star_wars_jedi_knight__jedi_academy.html

In cutscenes, the rest of the non-speaking Jedi students are filled out by random outfits/species the player did not use. I didn't find a shot online with the maroon/gold outfit as an NPC (I can try to replay the game a few times and see if it pops up?) but here's a shot that shows several Twi'leks in the same outfits - clearly the computer thinks the outfits have sets, and they're not randomly scrambled. (fyi, the player character in this scene is the Rodian in the center front, then Kyle Katarn to the viewer's right, and "old canon Jaden" happens to be the guy next to Kyle. This is his canon face/clothing, but you could change the color of the trim on this set of robes.)
https://www.gamecrate.com/throwback-thursday-jedi-fallen-order-star-wars-jedi-academy-was-ultimate-lightsaber-experience/22781


Although old canon mostly settled on white human male for book Jaden, according to Wookieepedia, the Planet Hoppers: Hoth Under The Ice game did have Jaden as a female Twi'lek (in Hoth gear obviously) instead.

In the Jedi Academy game itself, you could also choose from human female, Zabrak female, human male, Rodian male, or Kel Dor male. However, If I remember correctly, the other species had multiple faces and you could change the colors on their outfits. Twi'lek Jaden always has the same face and you can only change her skin color. So I would make the argument that Twi'lek Jaden is the least customizable version of Jaden Korr.

I would suggest that Jaden's costume sets are the Maroon/Gold outfit, Lavender outfit, Gold, and Gray/Gold.
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Lora Skywalker ()
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 02, 2019 9:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

JediDWH wrote:
I understand you get the final call on this one, however I'd like to point out as someone who was involved in the discussion around that charter provision that it was not intended to be used in this way. It was specifically referring to costumes you can edit- you cannot change the color, look, or combination of any of Jaden's outfits, and the outfits are identical no matter what species you put them on.

Just a matter of difference in perspective, but my opinion is unchanged.

This honestly throws all customizable video game leads into question- Revan has three different starting outfits you can choose from and like 12 different heads each between two genders. And most people don't even use the starting outfit, they go with the KOTOR-style Jedi robes you pick up later, or the Star Forge robes. If you could edit colors and choose more granularly than "torso" and "legs" then maybe, but there's a fixed number of combinations and you can't really deviate from what the game designers intended.

I mean I guess there is some art floating around somewhere from the canceled Jaden book where you can be human male dude Jaden, but that feels quite a lot more limiting than the Legion has traditionally been with video game leads.


That was certainly how it was ruled the last time we looked at KOTOR game costumes. No edits, but as long as you went with standard sets, then it was fine.
As I see it having multiple sets to choose from is no different than a comic or movie character doing a costume change. The issue is not what species or gender the character is, not in this game, but whether there's standard sets to be worn.
With access to the game it shouldn't be too hard making a full list of possible costumes and species along with with colors can be used for the twi'lek. It's an exhaustive list, after all.

From what I've read the costume itself cannot be edited, so I don't believe it falls under the 'edit' rule in the charter. It just has some variations like other costumes do.
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