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Kaydel/generic officers from TLJ costume standard discussion
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Schph Gochi (Phyllis Schulte)
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 30, 2017 1:08 pm    Post subject: Kaydel/generic officers from TLJ costume standard discussion Reply with quote

There have been a number of costumes submitted approval for the version of Kaydel/generic officers from "The Last Jedi".

This costume appears to differ from the Kaydel/Junior controller uniform from TFA only in the jacket and rank badge?

Some other things up for discussion is the color of the pants.....there were a few images from TFA that show the pants rendering a olive brown, but so far all that I have seen so far from TLJ is that the pants are brown.

Also, there is a discussion on what the stitching should be on the back of the jacket.


These are the images that I have - I am sure that there are probably a lot more out there...so please feel free to contribute:












Of note also:
As per the Rebel Legion charter - reference images for any costume to be approved should be front to back and head to toe images.

At this time, I have no image of the back of Kaydel's costume....
if anyone has something to contribute....it would be greatly appreciated.
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tenebris (empathy)
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 30, 2017 6:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

trousers are brown sanded twill.

Coat is cambric cotton. DYED to yellow/brown which is what gives it the muted colour...(its not bright yellow).

she has different boots from the generics IN TLJ.

Hers are a knee high flat brown boot, with an adjustable side tab, inside zip and the tops are graded higher on the outside to lower on the inside (like riding boots). Most of the genrics have the 'po-zu poe' style boots....The pic is not great but shows all the differnt outfits. (however in TFA some of the generics with the full quilted jacket look like they have the same knee boots as connix).



(connix's boots are the same for TFA and TLJ).

The shoulder seam comes down the shoulder towards the arm slightly (same sort of shaping as the jacket in TFA).







I think the back of all the characters with this jacket def have princess seams, even in TFA. This image is small but comes from the TFA visual dictionary, I stand by what I said on the other thread which is that the adjustable belt is hidden by the main leather belt. There is yet another yellow full jacket without the red symbol on the front, it is possible that one has no princess seams?




belt buckle is the same width as belt and is weathered (on all characters). colours seem to range from saddle tan to dark brown. Connix's is weathered or vintage saddle tan.


trousers are the same as the TFA ones but in brown. High waisted patch front pockets that become belt loops at the waistband, knees are combat style with knee section that grades towards the back of the knee. The knees have knee patch detail in a rounded rectangle.



(ignore the texture, thats the book).



These are the pics from TFA but the trouser construction is the same and I think these show it best. It also shows the tops of the boots.







So these are pretty grainy screen grabs from TFA but I've put them up so you can see that they wear the calico shirt under the quilted jacket, there's a few scenes in TLJ when you can see it very clearly on connix.

[url=https://ibb.co/ftTp9w]
[/url]





Last edited by tenebris (empathy) on Sun Jan 07, 2018 7:28 pm; edited 4 times in total
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spectreseven ()
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 30, 2017 9:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here are a few more reference images:




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PostPosted: Tue Jan 02, 2018 10:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Do we have any details on the brown, collared jacket that other generic officers wear? I.E., material, etc?
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tenebris (empathy)
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 04, 2018 7:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote



Ok someone else put this up in the 'holdo standards' thread and it shows clearly those 'other' yellow quilted jackets with the rebels symbol on the side not the chest. It Could be these with the back adjustment?

I think it also shows that element of mix and match I was talking about on the connix/jumior controller TFA thread. although the full quilted jacket and brown trousers seems to be a standard combo.

You will see that connix in this picture has the green trousers on from TFA so again I'm thinking she was just dressed from stock. Because the trousers 'for 'TFA are tobbaco brown and are for the visual dictionary and parts of the film.


It does however show the trouser details at the knee clearly and her boots.
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 05, 2018 12:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Could someone please follow up on the fact that someone has already been approved for TLJ Connix?

The costume approved is without princess seams which is what some people got turned away for? Surely this is a little unfair.
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Arthrax (Rebecca Fisher-Jackson)
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 05, 2018 12:43 am    Post subject: Re: Kaydel/generic officers from TLJ costume standard discus Reply with quote

Schph Gochi wrote:
There have been a number of costumes submitted approval for the version of Kaydel/generic officers from "The Last Jedi".

This costume appears to differ from the Kaydel/Junior controller uniform from TFA only in the jacket and rank badge?

Some other things up for discussion is the color of the pants.....there were a few images from TFA that show the pants rendering a olive brown, but so far all that I have seen so far from TLJ is that the pants are brown.

Also, there is a discussion on what the stitching should be on the back of the jacket.


These are the images that I have - I am sure that there are probably a lot more out there...so please feel free to contribute:












Of note also:
As per the Rebel Legion charter - reference images for any costume to be approved should be front to back and head to toe images.

At this time, I have no image of the back of Kaydel's costume....
if anyone has something to contribute....it would be greatly appreciated.


In response to the colour of the trousers, someone I know that worked with the costuming department on the film said that the trousers were a tobacco coloured twill for Connix in TLJ.
_________________
Elstree Base PR Team: October 2017-Present
******************
Current Costumes:
TFA Kaydel Ko Connix - Junior Controller's Uniform - Approved! (26/06/17)

WIP Costumes:
TFA General Leia Organa (Jumpsuit)
ANH Luke Skywalker (Lars Homestead / Tatooine)
******************
Troop Count: 11


Last edited by Arthrax (Rebecca Fisher-Jackson) on Sun Jan 07, 2018 3:35 am; edited 1 time in total
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abigailrising ()
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 05, 2018 12:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

There is also the issue of the pants color- the approved TLJ Connix has the same olive green colored pants that I have, and yet I was turned away for it. The pants appear to be a tobacco colored twill in the TOPPS card, yet an olive green in some of the scenes of the movie. And the fact that so many of the statements regarding her pants and boots are accredited to her photo in the visual dictionary is really problematic because that photo is so dark it's impossible to decipher what those colors are. All the references are so contradictory.
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Arthrax (Rebecca Fisher-Jackson)
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 05, 2018 12:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

PrincessLivia wrote:
Could someone please follow up on the fact that someone has already been approved for TLJ Connix?

The costume approved is without princess seams which is what some people got turned away for? Surely this is a little unfair.


I would also like to know about this, especially as the trousers used are olive green and not the SA tobacco brown.
_________________
Elstree Base PR Team: October 2017-Present
******************
Current Costumes:
TFA Kaydel Ko Connix - Junior Controller's Uniform - Approved! (26/06/17)

WIP Costumes:
TFA General Leia Organa (Jumpsuit)
ANH Luke Skywalker (Lars Homestead / Tatooine)
******************
Troop Count: 11
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Benae Quee (Kristin Sirota)
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 05, 2018 3:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Amadalia Maiden Guard
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Last edited by Benae Quee (Kristin Sirota) on Tue Jan 09, 2018 3:03 am; edited 1 time in total
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Arthrax (Rebecca Fisher-Jackson)
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 05, 2018 3:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Benae Quee wrote:
Just noticing this as well. My pants are the olive drab color, my boots lack the buckle, and my jacket does not have princess seams. It appears the approved costume is built similarly and is also lacking princess seams, boot buckles, and has olive pants. If you are going to deny one member being called a face character, than all should be.

I was approved only as a generic officer and told I would "absolutely" need the buckles on the boots, as well as brown pants, and princess seams in order to be Connix. I was also told that my belt needed to be the same width as the buckle, and that my rebel bird was too high. The bird should be on the breast is what I was told. Unless I've been looking at some other chest for the last 35 years of my life... I'm pretty sure I know where certain body parts are.

I was also informed that my front flap was about 3 inches too far over. The approved costume is only about 1" shorter than my own from the looks of it.

I have nothing against this member, so I deleted her face. I'm just using the costume itself as an example. If we are going to admit a costume as a face character, then it should be held to the same exact standards as everyone else. The costume looks just like mine, which was denied as Connix, except for the color, but that could be lighting in the photo. Based on what I was told about my own costume, she should not have been admitted as Connix, but as a regular officer too.





I didn't want to say it, but it looks like favoritism on Sunrider's part, just to be "first"... which is just childish. My own costume was picked apart by an "expert" from Sunrider, a costume that looks for all intents and purposes, to be similar looking to the approved costume exampled above (which is a Sunrider base member). Why was this same "expert" not brought in to pick apart the flaws in the approved costume? While they cannot judge it, since they are their own base, they should have been consulted for input as the rest of us were. They should have said "Oh yeah, we denied several people already for this same sort of thing, she should be too." This ends up looking like rules were bent for a friend/fellow base member to the rest of us. This is inconsistent and shady looking.

I'm normally okay to sit on the side lines and just troop and have fun. I've been doing this since Oct 2002. I've been a LCJ, back in the days when we didn't have experts in a category or nearly as much resource material. It was even harder at that time than it is now. Now, we have countless more members with a vast wealth of knowledge to call upon. I'm tired of seeing posts on FB all the time about people being denied over petty details while others get away with the same exact thing or costumes that look even worse.


I would like to wade in on this subject. I unfortunately cannot post photos right now as I'm working, but here is my experience and thoughts:

I was also rejected. For a fair few reasons. After seeing the film, I totally understand that my costume was not perfect, but a lot of these things that were wrong would've been easily fixable:

-The colour of my jacket was too light. But that would've been easily changeable with some dye (which I have since done).

-The quilted lines were too far apart, but that is also easily fixable.

-My front flap was too far over, but again, easily fixable with trimming.

-The tunic was longer in the back than the front, but that could also have been easily fixed.

- My Resistance logo was approximately 0.5 inches too big, but that would've been fixable by re-doing the front panel.

- I had already bought a new belt.

However, I was also rejected on the basis of the lack of princess streams, and the strap on the back of the jacket. Adding princess seams would've meant for me to have to completely re-make this costume, and would've have been something I could easily fix and quickly re-apply after doing. Therefore, it is incredibly frustrating to since see people being accepted without the princess seams, as I could've easily updated my costume with the other suggestions.

I'm also surprised that someone has been cleared, considering the insistence towards others to not bother starting the costume because the costumes are not clearable until there are 'head to toe, front and back' photos. Have new photos of Connix appeared that show these things?

It is also very frustrating to be denied based on princess seams that you can hardly notice among the quilting, and a Resistance logo that is 0.5 too big -
which do not make or break the costume - yet people have been approved with clearly the wrong coloured trousers and jackets - which I think makes a huge difference to the costume. There is an interview given by one of the costume designers where he talks about how the Resistance use an earthy colour scheme; in my person opinion, approving people with what one can only describe as mango-coloured jackets, is much more distracting that approving people with the more low-key and SA tones of tan/beige. Furthermore, if something as important and central as General Leia's twin ring on her TFA jumpsuit - who is a very well known face character (unlike Connix) - is not needed for approval as it is deemed as 'not making or breaking the costume', why on earth are princess seams that are hardly noticeable, deemed so important?

I also find it outrageous that a judge would say it is ok to approve someone as a generic officer without the strap, despite the fact that - at that time and proven since - there was no evidence that Connix ever had a strap, yet we knew the generic officers did - so how does that make sense? I am also confused as to why I was not also offered to be approved as a generic Resistance Officer on my denied application, as others seem to have been?

I'm also frustrated with the difference in quilting: there have been people approved with quilting that is clearly not entirely straight lines - which it should be - but have more of a diamond shape. Yet mine was called out for not having the correct distance between the quilting lines; how is this justifiable? Having someone with completely different-shaped quilting lines is far more distracting that having a slightly larger gap between the top.

I would also like to convey something that I strongly feel and which I have already said briefly in another thread: I do not think it is acceptable to use leaked images - even if they are from the official visual dictionary - to send to people regarding costumes until they are officially released. I had a small part of the film ruined for me by someone who was sent the photos forwarding it on to me. That should not be acceptable; and neither is using photographs from an exclusive event (NYCC) that not all have access to - and then continuing to use these photos to judge despite the fact that this scene does not take place in the film, and therefore is not canon.


I know we're not technically allowed to say: 'But this person was approved, so I should be to', but I feel that this situation calls for it. When someone is approved with the costume elements missing that has caused the rest of us to be rejected, and this person is a a friend or colleague or a fellow judge or the person who did the judging, I feel that something has to be said, or judges could easily just approve their friends without fear of criticism.

I feel awful typing this out, but it's how I feel.
_________________
Elstree Base PR Team: October 2017-Present
******************
Current Costumes:
TFA Kaydel Ko Connix - Junior Controller's Uniform - Approved! (26/06/17)

WIP Costumes:
TFA General Leia Organa (Jumpsuit)
ANH Luke Skywalker (Lars Homestead / Tatooine)
******************
Troop Count: 11


Last edited by Arthrax (Rebecca Fisher-Jackson) on Sun Jan 07, 2018 7:27 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PondLife81 (Christine Evans)
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 05, 2018 4:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I would also like to address the continued use of the image back view of the generic Resistance Member. This image came from an interactive exhibit with paid actors.



This is from The Last Jedi exhibit/experience they had on the floor of NYCC. Though there were screen used costumes and props on display in this area, there is no way that we can guarantee that this is a screen worn piece for either of the movies. It could have been made for this exhibit or for the parks and designed with the belts to be put on local actors. This makes this a tertiary source at best. It would be like going to the park and taking pics of the park Rey and submitting it for a CRL. There is no provenance for this outfit.

I am including a link to a video that shows the paid actors at the experience (a job I have held) and a close up of the Funko bag.


Thank you.
Christine Evans

Pic from exhibit

TLJ at NYCC Video
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lNjwsz8bLLI

==edited 1.7.18==


Last edited by PondLife81 (Christine Evans) on Sun Jan 07, 2018 11:35 pm; edited 1 time in total
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tenebris (empathy)
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 05, 2018 7:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've been repeatedly ignored while trying to help people. Its not about picking people apart. Its that we are supposed to be screen accurate to within the best of our ability and refs.


With the back belt, in all honesty like I said before it may just be hidden by the main belt? But it is an easy fix with a bagged out strip and a quick unpick.


Its a strap and sam browne type stud on the top of her boots not a buckle, ....there is no strap on the bottom.


I for one wouldn't rush out to make a costume before even seeing a film, due to lack of refs.....Actually I've had the fabric for this one sitting here while I wait for conformation. I think its different when there are no standards after months or years, but its been 2 weeks. Like we don't even have the ability to look at all the screen caps. For me this seems like people wanting to be 'first' and just rushing, like you are all arguing the princess seams.....but ignoring the entire trousers! It actually really upsets me as I have multiple medical conditions that makes even wearing normal clothes hard so i have to work really hard to work around them and it still look right.


Whatever the inconsistances are for the green/brown. We could have the 2 versions be approvable for TLJ connix?
As long as the boots, belt and other bits are right? and the trousers are right, just in olive or tobbaco brown? As we are going to have to work on some kind of colour combo for at least 2 of the generic rebel officers costumes.


Last edited by tenebris (empathy) on Sun Jan 07, 2018 7:29 pm; edited 4 times in total
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Schph Gochi (Phyllis Schulte)
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 05, 2018 11:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

People seem determined to submit costumes before there is a standard in place and that leaves judges to try to determine what is and is not allowable.

The judges end up getting pressure from applicants and often Base Commanders especially before a premier event. Note also that all judges view things differently.

Obviously, everyone who makes a costume in a certain manner is convinced they are correct about certain details. I have made a good many costumes thinking my information was correct and found out (sometimes years) later that I was wrong. It took nearly 40 years to find out what the black vest of a Rebel Fleet Trooper really looked like.

The judges got a lot of pressure regarding the Connix character and some of the details were not known at the time that some of the first costumes were approved.

The only real solution to the problem would be to not approve any new costume applications until there is a standard in place.

As judges, I think you would agree that it is unlikely that a judge can be intimately familiar with each and every costume that they are to judge. The people most familiar with any costume are those that actually build them. Where often there is great reference material on some portions of the costume, most often the back of the costume is either unknown or the images are so small and grainy that you really can't make out everything you need to see.



For me personally, I have made a lot of costumes if you look at my profile and I know those costumes very well....but I do not now, nor have I ever known every detail about every costume that I am tasked to judge.

Again, the only solution to the problem is to not approve any costumes without a standard in place.....

And the only way one really knows the real color or fabric texture a costume has is if the costume is viewed in person at an exhibit. Note also that photos often submitted do not show a color correctly. To those submitting photos, it might be a good idea to make sure that the color in the photo you are submitting actually renders costume pieces close to what your pieces actually are. Lighting conditions, flash, cameras and even a person's computer screen can show colors way off from what they really are.


These costumes may or may not ever be seen in person.
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Last edited by Schph Gochi (Phyllis Schulte) on Fri Jan 05, 2018 11:56 am; edited 2 times in total
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tenebris (empathy)
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 05, 2018 11:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Schph Gochi wrote:


Obviously, everyone who makes a costume in a certain manner is convinced they are correct about certain details.

And the only way one really knows the real color or fabric texture a costume has is if the costume is viewed in person at an exhibit.

These costumes may or may not ever be seen in person.


Its not about being right, its about does it look like the reference pictures( as much as possible).

I've got my swatches here, I've tried to do with flash and daylight.....

twill is actually very cheap and easily avalible so i think it would be good to put it in the standards. The twill is sanded

So maybe say heavy or midweight twill? what does everyone think?







This is the cambric cotton (undyed) A smooth closely woven Cotton, similar to a Lawn but much heavier. so if you wanted an alternative then a cotton lawn I guess? or a mid tight woven cotton.





This is the calico light (for the TFA waistcoat and the undershirt with small collar seen in both films) basically the lightest calico.



I think the most important thing is to try and colaborate all the refs that everyone has and try to build the best, clearest CRL for these costumes going forward.


Last edited by tenebris (empathy) on Sun Jan 07, 2018 7:32 pm; edited 2 times in total
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