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Prequel Style Jedi - Costume Standard Proposal (Part II)
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Krash
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 21, 2015 2:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

dannv wrote:
Why don't you want a prescribed medical device in the profile photo? Are you going to make someone with an artificial limb remove it for the profile photo or require someone with braces to not smile or someone who requires a wheel chair not sit in it for the profile photo? Or are you just going to discriminate against people with glasses?


While common sense seems to have regained the high ground on this point. I want to commend dannv for putting this subject in a very REAL context.

Too often in recent years, I hear a lot of people talk about what should/shouldn't be considered a reasonable expectation of "standards"... standards that apply to other people's needs.

I wear glasses in real life (my eyes are too damaged to wear contacts anymore) but I choose to not wear my glasses for trooping because I can get away with dealing with seeing "a big light blur" for a while. Others don't have that luxury and it's not our right/place to force that upon them, even if for a few pictures to submit the costume.

This is one area of the costume standards we can/should leave up to the individual's best judgement.
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 21, 2015 2:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

stardancer1914 wrote:
Hopfot wrote:
Just to add on the issue of glasses.

I wear glasses due to blurred and distorted vision in 1 eye from an injury back in high school. I also pick up too much light in that eye due to nerve damage in the iris. So having them on does considerably help with my stereo vision.

Now, honestly, approval photos, you don't need to be wearing your glasses to stand in front of a camera, so take them off. But you may need them when out and about, and if you can neither afford or medically wear contacts, then yes you can wear them whilst trooping.

Also, remember too that when you say glasses, but no sunglasses. Some of us can only afford 1 pair of glasses, and they may be a nice pair of transition lenses, such as mine (to cope with the too much light I mentioned). And when they are in the sunlight, they go as dark as sunglasses. Thank the maker my health insurance paid for half of them, cause those transitions were expensive.

So my point, IF you say glasses, but no sunglasses. Remember that sometimes, glasses can look like sunglasses. And secondly, it really should be no glasses at all for approval photos (for the sake of your profile pic) but allowed under extreme circumstances for trooping.


Again, I state that asking people to remove glasses is like asking a person in a wheelchair to stand. It is insulting. It is discrimination. I am happy that your eyes allow you to stand in front of a camera for a picture. Mine do not. I risk permanent blindness if my glasses are off and my eyes open in anything other than total darkness. I cannot tolerate the light of indoor lighting. I really cannot tolerate the lighting of outdoors. If the no glasses rule goes into effect, I will take all my approval pictures with my eyes shut - no exceptions. And I am not alone in this.

As for transiiton lenses - we ask that applicants take their photos so that the lenses are as clear as possible. since the approval photo is photoshopped by the Legion, there is no reason for approval action photos to be taken outside so the sunglass effect is avoided.

As to dannv question - this is a standard covering prequel movie jedi only. As stated before we are hoping to have Jedi for different time periods. Once they are all established the current generic Jedi will be eliminated. So this standard is not to cover all the Jedi possibilities but just those ones seen in episodes 1-3, the clone wars - movie and tv series (both animated and CGI) and the graphic novels, books and toys from those periods.


I think an excellent explanation.

Dannv is right, it is important to define the period of time this custome Standard covers. If we take into account the Expanded Universe Legend, movies, etc., this Custome Standard can cover from 50 BBY (stories that tell a young Jin with Dooku and also a young Obi Wan Kenobi) to Order 66 and the Great Jedi Purge.

With respect to glasses, I finally seems important to note that you can use, as also clarify other medical items such as wheelchairs,prostheses, crutches and other elements. The more Custome explained this Standard, the future member will have more information to make your attire.

With respect to Tabard Y if you want we can incorporate the information that indicates the book. But I think that would be another standard to touch anything prior to 50 BBY.

It is an opinion.

Best Regards!
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 21, 2015 2:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

stardancer1914 wrote:

As to dannv question - this is a standard covering prequel movie jedi only. As stated before we are hoping to have Jedi for different time periods. Once they are all established the current generic Jedi will be eliminated. So this standard is not to cover all the Jedi possibilities but just those ones seen in episodes 1-3, the clone wars - movie and tv series (both animated and CGI) and the graphic novels, books and toys from those periods.


And that is the answer I am hoping our detachment leader or Sarah will give. Because if that's what it is, the proposal needs to have a lot pruned that then needs to be included in another standard for a different era.
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 21, 2015 2:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

dannv wrote:
stardancer1914 wrote:

As to dannv question - this is a standard covering prequel movie jedi only. As stated before we are hoping to have Jedi for different time periods. Once they are all established the current generic Jedi will be eliminated. So this standard is not to cover all the Jedi possibilities but just those ones seen in episodes 1-3, the clone wars - movie and tv series (both animated and CGI) and the graphic novels, books and toys from those periods.


And that is the answer I am hoping our detachment leader or Sarah will give. Because if that's what it is, the proposal needs to have a lot pruned that then needs to be included in another standard for a different era.


I agree with that. Dannv and stardancer1914, that´s right Wink Wink

Best regards!
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 21, 2015 1:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Oraculo wrote:
dannv wrote:
stardancer1914 wrote:

As to dannv question - this is a standard covering prequel movie jedi only. As stated before we are hoping to have Jedi for different time periods. Once they are all established the current generic Jedi will be eliminated. So this standard is not to cover all the Jedi possibilities but just those ones seen in episodes 1-3, the clone wars - movie and tv series (both animated and CGI) and the graphic novels, books and toys from those periods.


And that is the answer I am hoping our detachment leader or Sarah will give. Because if that's what it is, the proposal needs to have a lot pruned that then needs to be included in another standard for a different era.


I agree with that. Dannv and stardancer1914, that´s right Wink Wink

Best regards!


First, I want to say that I'm not personally attached to one option or another and could easily make an argument for either.

Having said that... It seems like everyone is forgetting the conversation from the previous thread and the KJO vote. The outcome from that was far more focused on the style of Jedi garb shown in the prequels (OT/tabards/obi), but not necessarily limited to the time period since we were including some allowances from the original trilogy and post-ROTJ Legends.

Just to be clear, if we say that this standard is prequel era only, we'll need to remove black as an optional color, short sleeved OTs, contrasting tabards, geometric ends of tabards, patterns on tabards, black belts and boots, and d-ring clips. I'm sure this isn't a complete list and there'd be discussion on some of these items, but this should give an idea.

Additionally, we'd likely be back to having a Legends standard as well (a second standard along with the new Prequel one) where all of the above are acceptable, including the components from the Prequel category. From a judging perspective, unless someone specifically noted that they were submitting as a "Prequel Jedi" (and there currently is not a field for this unless it's included in the notes), I can't see any judge ever looking at the prequel standard since the Legends standard would be broader. Similarly, I can't imagine why a costumer would use the Prequel over the Legends category for guidance in their build.

This would be very similar to the old Jedi standards where we had Old Republic and New Republic which were merged not too long ago into our current standard. I do not feel that this was the message that we got from the KJO membership.
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 21, 2015 8:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I do not see the point in having two nearly identical standards and at any rate the members voted for a style standard rather than a specific period standard. So I think we should be keeping to that and see what is seen with the OT, tabard, obi style of jedi garb. This does mean that those jedi costumes from EU/Legends that are of this style would be covered by this standard. The rest of the NR jedi wouldn't.

The glasses discussion is really besides the point I feel. They're a medical device and people who need them will wear them when trooping, so they might as well wear them in their roster picture as well.
I, too, wear glasses, but I have chosen to use lenses for costuming purposes. Not everyone can do this though.
Let's not make a big deal out of it and just keep it to 'please avoid sunglasses in your roster image. If your glasses go dark under harsh light, please take your pictures indoors so they are as see through as possible.'

And since some jedi do wear different kinds of jewelry it's really a non issue. Rings aren't that conspicious anyway.

I'd like to repeat my plea for lots of reference images from all media so we can have a solid base for this standard. We have a lot of movie references, but not so many from other media types. Smile
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 22, 2015 1:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

[quote="rogue9607"][quote="Oraculo"][quote="dannv"]
stardancer1914 wrote:

First, I want to say that I'm not personally attached to one option or another and could easily make an argument for either.

(snip)


And that is why I have kept asking what direction does the leadership want to go. We all know the LCJs can create the standards and put them out there however they want. We get to discuss it here because they want some input. The LCJ plan that was put forward was to limit by era. The vote didn't go that way, but as the discussion goes on, we seem to be going back to it because the differing eras don't match and you can end up with costumes that don't fit either. I can argue either side all day. However, the charter discussion blew up over the idea of custom costumes. If we go with the current standard, it allows and encourages custom costumes which doesn't match the charter discussion. So, I've just stayed back and asked questions and wondered what happens if we create a standard and a couple months later it violates the charter.
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 22, 2015 3:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

We raised in the beginning (and according to the majority of members voting) that it is not desirable to separate the standard in many standards and subcategories, by age (per year). It can be very confusing for future members. We can find bibliographic references that support each section of this Custome Standard. The proposed Standard Custome seems fine for a standard generic.

The division that Sarah pose is perfect. It is logical and very clear to prospective members

The original idea was to keep the standards specific to each era/costume.

For example, these are the standards we have so far that cover different costumes-

Generic-
http://www.rebellegion.com/jedi-costume-standards-generic/

TOR armoured-
http://www.rebellegion.com/the-old-republic-armored-jedi/

Generic Jedi General-
http://www.rebellegion.com/generic-jedi-general-the-clone-wars/

Generic KOTOR I
http://www.rebellegion.com/generic-kotor-i-jedi/

Generic Old Republic-
http://www.rebellegion.com/generic-old-republic-jedi/

These are all very different costumes, but still Jedi.

Divide standards can bring more to the confusion. Many members so raised. And the feedback that it was so decided. This thread was opened to polish on that standard. But we do not focus on that, we will never end finally define the Jedi Generic updates

It is my perspective and the goal of this new thread.

I agree with Lora and Nick. We end up with solid references defining and work on the proposal was already voted.

Thank you

Best Regards!
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 22, 2015 5:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi,

I would like raise a question, the belt type A and Type B both reference 2 different Old Republic style belts.

under this rule then my jedi would be considered New Republic Jedi?

I have a luke/old ben belt with knee high boots, scarf tabard and OT/IT combo.

is this right?

does it also mean that my costume originally had a obi wan kenobi belt that under these new standards I wouldn't be able to change it for old ben's style belt?
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 22, 2015 12:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Not to beat a dead horse, however some sunglasses are prescription. As discussed they are a medical device. The standard should be worded that clear lenses are preferred for submission photos otherwise you may be creating a situation where someone chooses to exercise their right to legally challenge to wear dark tinted prescription glasses ( I.E. sunglasses). Stating the preference gives both the costumer and the judge flexibility to address individual situations as needed.
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 22, 2015 4:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

sorry, I am just discovering this thread, so I might be a bit late in the discussion. I would like to go back to the ring topic...
I have a wedding band. And, call it whatever you want (lack of exercise, excess of bacon, etc...) but it is technically impossible for me to remove this ring. which is OK with me, because symbolically, it means I am attached to my wife forever.
so... if no rings are allowed, how do I do?
I also agree with the Y-shaped tabard : although I dont wear one, it looks really cool on some jedis...
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 22, 2015 8:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The original purpose of reviewing the standard from the very beginning was to make it clearer, easier to understand and matched references.

The easiest way at the time was to define them by era/style. This is how the standards had been going already with Clone Wars Jedi General, TOR Armour etc

Seperating the standards had already been started a long time ago.

I *try* to look at these standards from an unbiased point of view.

*Is the element shown in references
*Is the element seen on this style of costume
*Is the element seen on more than one character, therefore making it 'generic' and not character specific
*Would the standard translate well into a different language
*Would someone be able to find a reference for what the standard is describing

The last one I highlighted because I think that's important.


It's difficult to create a standard for something which doesn't really exist as technically every Jedi is a face character.

Maybe the title for this standard is misleading? Maybe something like 'Traditional Jedi', because that's what most people perceive a Jedi to look like. I know that's not a canon term to use or era specific or maybe not descriptive enough but it does desribe the look of what is commonly perceived as a Jedi.

Just my thoughts on this so far
Ben
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 22, 2015 8:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

sarah_d wrote:
The original purpose of reviewing the standard from the very beginning was to make it clearer, easier to understand and matched references.

The easiest way at the time was to define them by era/style. This is how the standards had been going already with Clone Wars Jedi General, TOR Armour etc

Seperating the standards had already been started a long time ago.

I *try* to look at these standards from an unbiased point of view.

*Is the element shown in references
*Is the element seen on this style of costume
*Is the element seen on more than one character, therefore making it 'generic' and not character specific
*Would the standard translate well into a different language
*Would someone be able to find a reference for what the standard is describing

The last one I highlighted because I think that's important.


It's difficult to create a standard for something which doesn't really exist as technically every Jedi is a face character.

Maybe the title for this standard is misleading? Maybe something like 'Traditional Jedi', because that's what most people perceive a Jedi to look like. I know that's not a canon term to use or era specific or maybe not descriptive enough but it does desribe the look of what is commonly perceived as a Jedi.

Just my thoughts on this so far
Ben


I agree

As explained in the previous post, the proposal we are discussing in this thread contains the more generic elements of the Jedi of books, games, movies and series that include the prequels, the original trilogy and post Episode 6.

I like the name of Traditional Jedi.

So I think this standard divide more (over the division you wont) seems confusing. I propose as mini objectives to solve in this proposal:

-see the topic of rings and pendants
-see the topic of medical items such as glasses, wheelchairs, etc.
-Tabard Y
-belts of New Republic (Luke, Ben Kenobi) by the query that made a member

I liked the idea of translation. It may be a good idea to apply in other custome standards. The diversity of languages can help many members or prospective members who do not know English perfectly.

Well we define this, continue to refine the proposal.

In this way we can get to finish it.

Obviously it is my opinion and point of view. Wink Wink

Sarah, thank you very much for your message

Best Regards! Wink Wink
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 22, 2015 8:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

sarah_d wrote:
Maybe the title for this standard is misleading? Maybe something like 'Traditional Jedi', because that's what most people perceive a Jedi to look like. I know that's not a canon term to use or era specific or maybe not descriptive enough but it does desribe the look of what is commonly perceived as a Jedi.

I completely agree on the "Traditional Jedi" term. I've had that label for the new proposal in my comparison file from the beginning. Very Happy


Oraculo wrote:
-see the topic of rings and pendants
-see the topic of medical items such as glasses, wheelchairs, etc.

I know we've talked about this a lot, but I feel we really are beating a dead horse. Does anyone actually have any issue with how it's currently stated in the proposal?

"Accessories may include: eye-wear, face coverings and jewelry.
Though not required, applicants are encouraged to provide precedence (of their accessory of choice) within the Star Wars universe. "

Additionally, the charter states the following on application photos: "Pictures will be considered unacceptable if the applicant is wearing or holding anything not appropriate for the costume, including but not limited to sunglasses, convention badges, drinks, etc. Medical and assistive devices are exempt."

Oraculo wrote:
-Tabard Y

Personally, I don't think we have sufficient reference for Y tabards in this specific style of Jedi costume. Yes, they look good/fit in, but the reference we do have does not align with the other components of this costume.

Oraculo wrote:
-belts of New Republic (Luke, Ben Kenobi) by the query that made a member

My gut on this is that we could add the following back into the belt section if we're focusing on the general style rather than the specific time period:
"Style C: Similar to Original Trilogy (Luke and Old Ben) belts: Singular wide leather belt with a rectangular, octagonal or oval unadorned buckle."
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 23, 2015 1:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

rogue9607 wrote:

I know we've talked about this a lot, but I feel we really are beating a dead horse. Does anyone actually have any issue with how it's currently stated in the proposal?

"Accessories may include: eye-wear, face coverings and jewelry.
Though not required, applicants are encouraged to provide precedence (of their accessory of choice) within the Star Wars universe. "

Additionally, the charter states the following on application photos: "Pictures will be considered unacceptable if the applicant is wearing or holding anything not appropriate for the costume, including but not limited to sunglasses, convention badges, drinks, etc. Medical and assistive devices are exempt."


Brilliant! I agree.

rogue9607 wrote:

Personally, I don't think we have sufficient reference for Y tabards in this specific style of Jedi costume. Yes, they look good/fit in, but the reference we do have does not align with the other components of this costume.


I agree with this point. We will further investigate if we can find at least three references to this type of Tabard

rogue9607 wrote:

My gut on this is that we could add the following back into the belt section if we're focusing on the general style rather than the specific time period:
"Style C: Similar to Original Trilogy (Luke and Old Ben) belts: Singular wide leather belt with a rectangular, octagonal or oval unadorned buckle."


I agree. I like the description. Moreover, this good this possibility, because we also accept eg D-Ring

Thanks Nik!

Best Regards!
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