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Are gloves allowed for generic Jedi (would help for aliens)?
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Boudicca (Jennifer Bagosy)
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 04, 2012 4:48 pm    Post subject: Are gloves allowed for generic Jedi (would help for aliens)? Reply with quote

Hello,

It seems to me that there are relatively few alien generic Jedi that are formally approved (although I do see several Twi'lek Jedi).

It also seems to me that it might be easier for folks to have alien Jedi on the formal roster if it were permissible for generic Jedi to wear gloves (say, plain leather brown or black gloves, depending on the boots/belt color), because while there are several folks who sell alien masks, not all of them sell the hands as well.

So... are gloves allowed?

- Jen
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forceflaw (jarred daski)
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 04, 2012 5:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I would think as long as the aline had human hands and colors matched yes but don't know 100%. We do see a good number of aliens in the SW universe wear gloves. However if you alien race had flippers or some thing then normal gloves would not work.
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Boudicca (Jennifer Bagosy)
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 04, 2012 5:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

forceflaw wrote:
We do see a good number of aliens in the SW universe wear gloves. However if you alien race had flippers or some thing then normal gloves would not work.


True - I'm presupposing aliens with five-fingered or roughly human-sized hands so that ordinary gloves could be worn or at least modified to look right. But for example, for a Mon Cal, I understand that ordinary gloves wouldn't work. But I suppose you could modify some leather mittens and stuff them. Smile
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GotWookiee (Matt Pfingsten)
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 04, 2012 5:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thats a question for the Jedi and Wretched Hive (alien detachment) LCJ's. As I recall, this topic came up a few months ago but was never answered one way or the other. While Clone Wars armored Jedi wear gloves, film Jedi do not. I'm not sure about the EU.

The cheapest option for alien hands is to a check large costume retailer on the web or in person. Such companies will carry a wide variety of monster and creature hands and you will almost certainly find something that will work with little or no modification. In most cases a repaint may be all that is necessary.

If you need something more specific, most likely you can simply ask any of the various mask makers out there to do a set of hands. Anyone who can do masks can make hands in their sleep.

None of us had the skillset to make our costumes until we learned. Few of us have any formal training. It's easier than ever to learn this stuff thanks to the internet.
You could get some form fitting cotton or nylon gloves and then build up the knuckles with some yarn. Maybe glue on some monster claws from a costume ship. Coat with some liquid latex mold builder (about $10 at any craft store). Tool in some ridges and details as it sets up. You can mix a pinch of acrylic paint into the latex to tint it the color you want. Build up a few layers and you'll have some pretty good hands.If you're not going to build it yourself then any mask maker around here can do hands. They are much easier than a mask build. You can also try The Effects Lab if you can't find anyone here to make it for you.
Here is a guy offering to make masks:Now to answer your original question, as far as I know no prequel Jedi wears gloves, and the CRL's do not mention gloves as permissible, so my guess is that gloves will not be accepted. You'll have to ask the Jedi and Wretched Hive LCJ's and/or LMO for the final answer, though.

Exceptions aren't usually made because someone doesn't know how to make something. Members are expected to learn or find someone who can do it for them. Weather you decide to build or buy, the links I've given you should get you what you need.
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Mihunai (Jermain Palmen)
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 04, 2012 7:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

While I'm no LCJ, I have two Formal Generic Jedi, both had images
showing the gloves in my robe, and gloves on.

Both sets were normal, off-the-shelf leather gloves.

I think gloves are something they won't consider for formal status,
like TOR-style robes.
So as far as I can tell, if the Standards don't say it's unacceptable,
it's acceptable.

Just my 2ct.
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Boudicca (Jennifer Bagosy)
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 05, 2012 6:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

OK, a few comments here:

First - my question did mention aliens but was not limited to aliens. It pertains to the generic Jedi costume standards, which are silent on the matter of gloves. I tend to agree that, in this case, silence means that it should be ok, as other plain leather accessories are permitted also. For example, brown leather headwraps or hair accessories, which I've seen on formal human and Twi'lek Jedi alike. Moreover, the fact that generic Jedi in SWTOR have gloves would tend to weigh in favor of permitting them, even for formal. I realize that certain SWTOR elements are not accepted for formal, but that is because those elements conflict with the established standards for those costume pieces. (See for example, the recent discussion threads on robe vs. cape vs. cloak). So I believe that plain brown or black leather gloves should be permissible for generic formal Jedi - whether you're an alien, or a human, or you just live in a cold climate and want to be comfortable.

Second, just because there are sculptors who have sculpts in progress does not mean those products are done, close to done, or anywhere near readily available. Sculptors, in this hobby and in any other, take their time, which may be weeks, months, or years. Such is the nature of art.

Third, I believe it is a worthwhile goal to encourage more formal aliens in the RL. In canon, that is one of the primary differences in core values between the Empire and the Rebel Alliance. The Empire discriminated against aliens. The Rebels welcomed them, and had a much more egalitarian view on who was and was not qualified to fight, to pilot, and to lead. I believe the Rebel Legion should share this egalitarian spirit. And, if necessary, yes, to make it easier to be an alien.

Now I have come realize in my few months in RL/501st that there are some who flinch at the notion of making anything easier. I've seen thread after thread with people saying, "anyone can learn X" "anyone can cast their own resin armor..." "anyone can take excellent high-res photos". Sure, if you have the money, the dexterity, the facilities, something bigger than a tiny apartment.... But really, no, "anyone" can't sculpt high-quality alien hands. Many professional artists and sculptors will tell you that hands are the hardest to get right. And I don't see why an amateur's kit-bash of Bith or Rodian hands would look any better than a nice pair of brown leather gloves.

Fourth, and this is a more general point, but it applies here. People do this hobby for many different reasons. Some do it primarily to perfect their skills at sewing, casting, painting, what have you, or to learn new skills. Some do it to make friends. Some do it because they spent a lot of time in hospitals as a kid and love going to children's hospitals in costume to cheer up this generation of sick kids. For some, a combination. All reasons should be respected, and as such, there is a value in making it easier for people to do this activity. I'm not suggesting wear bathrobes and carry flashlights, but what I am saying is - balance.

- Jen
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SoloYT1300 (Robert Kohn)
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 06, 2012 1:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

There is a balance to these things...

It’s called Formal and Informal...


Things in life can be easy or hard... that is life. If you’re standing at the base of a mountain there is usually more than one path to the top. There is the steep slope straight up the mountain that will require tons of skill and gear, and then there is the gentle zigzag path that you could literally bike up. That is the RL. We have many ways to the top of the mountain (formal membership)... no one saying you must take the steep slope.

Some of these costumes you must learn the set skills if you are serious to conquer!

Example:
Han Solo- Leather work, metal work, sewing, embroidery, painting... etc... This is not something for a new costumer unless you have help, money, and patience.

Any of the alien costumes require multiple levels of skill to master... of which you can teach yourself if you are willing to read the forums and put some hard work into the costume... we are here to help.

To ask for us to lower the mountain because you want to take the hardest slope makes no sense. Pick a different route up the mountain or do the work we all had to do. The hard slope is not easy, nor should it be…but CAN be done if your willing to do the work!
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Hopfot (Scott)
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 06, 2012 1:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

My last jedi was approved at the beginning of this year. With black gloves. I would recommend having the gloves match the boots in colour.


http://www.rebellegion.com/forum/costume.php?mode=view&c=6568&bu=coslist.php%3Fview%3Dmy&bl=Back+to+my+costumes
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General_Koon (Rick Vargas)
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 06, 2012 6:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

depending on the Alien of course.

Plo Koon or any Dorin Keldorian should have 4 fingers with the middle being the largest. A a racial trait I understand they should all use the coffered talons in the middle fingers.

If you don't want to wear latex hands for this the gloves should, at least have the 4 finger anatomy on them.

this should be the same for any alien whose hands are "different" than a human's


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SithariRog (Roger Allen)
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 06, 2012 6:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Also be aware that costume standards change, or are clarified or updated. Just become someone was accepted with a given component several years ago, doesn't mean they would be today.

Over the past few months (and I dare say well into next year), your friendly costume standards committee, including the judges and detachments are working hard to make our costume standards better Wink

And I have to commend SoloYT1300 (Rober Kohn) on his explanation/analogy regarding the balance of costume standards and how one achieves membership with the Rebel Legion. Well said, Sir!
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Boudicca (Jennifer Bagosy)
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 06, 2012 8:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

SoloYT1300 wrote:

To ask for us to lower the mountain because you want to take the hardest slope makes no sense. Pick a different route up the mountain or do the work we all had to do. The hard slope is not easy, nor should it be…but CAN be done if your willing to do the work!




I must, with all due respect to Roger (without whose tutorials I never would have learned to sew at all, let alone my own Jedi garb), disagree that this analogy is helpful to someone who is new to the Legion. Quite the contrary, I find it to have missed the points I was trying to make, and I also find the tone to be more than a little condescending.

I never suggested that someone shouldn't have to do work or learn anything to make their costume. I didn't even suggest "lowering" any of the written standards. I just suggested adding to the written formal Jedi standards to permit gloves, which it appears from the helpful answers I received from Hopfot and Mihunai, may already be permitted. Particularly in absence of any currently available sources of certain alien hands. I don't think it's reasonable to expect that someone will be able to sculpt and cast their own hands. No one expects TK's or Scouts to sculpt and cast their own armor! Even the 501st recognizes that some allowances need to be made when certain products are not available. For example, the jackboots for TIE pilot/gunner and other costumes are largely out of production, so the Legion is no longer as strict about toe shape and boot texture - no one suggested that members must make their own jackboots to do these impressions.

Again, I'm not suggesting sacrificing accuracy by, i.e. allowing a Mon Cal to wear a human-styled five-fingered glove. I'm just suggesting that a five fingered Jedi, regardless of species, and regardless of motivation, should be allowed to wear appropriate-looking gloves. That is all.
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 06, 2012 10:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

JenB wrote:

Again, I'm not suggesting sacrificing accuracy by, i.e. allowing a Mon Cal to wear a human-styled five-fingered glove. I'm just suggesting that a five fingered Jedi, regardless of species, and regardless of motivation, should be allowed to wear appropriate-looking gloves. That is all.


If you think making alien hands are hard then you have no idea how difficult it is to make a pair of gloves that would properly fit on a Rodian or a Mon Cal.

How putting on a glove instead of making a proper alien hand not lowering a standard?

You say
JenB wrote:

I never suggested that someone shouldn't have to do work or learn anything to make their costume

… yet you say…
JenB wrote:

I don't think it's reasonable to expect that someone will be able to sculpt and cast their own hands.


Huh????? dizzy

That’s just it… if you want to make an alien…then make an alien! If you are unable to make an alien (remember analogy of mountain?) then pick a different path.

JenB wrote:

Second, just because there are sculptors who have sculpts in progress does not mean those products are done, close to done, or anywhere near readily available. Sculptors, in this hobby and in any other, take their time, which may be weeks, months, or years. Such is the nature of art.


If a product is not available at a moments notice we should treat it differently by throwing a glove over the hand? Can generic wookiee’s wear shoes then? I mean… it’s not like there is a supplier out there… all the wookiee’s had to make them if they wanted feet and for that matter a completed costume! I do not see how an alien hand would be any different. Unless there is a reference of a Rodian with gloves (would be an interesting glove to get on I imagine Laughing ) or whatever other species you’re going for… I do not see how it should be allowed.

JenB wrote:

Now I have come realize in my few months in RL/501st that there are some who flinch at the notion of making anything easier. I've seen thread after thread with people saying, "anyone can learn X" "anyone can cast their own resin armor..." "anyone can take excellent high-res photos". Sure, if you have the money, the dexterity, the facilities, something bigger than a tiny apartment.... But really, no, "anyone" can't sculpt high-quality alien hands. Many professional artists and sculptors will tell you that hands are the hardest to get right. And I don't see why an amateur's kit-bash of Bith or Rodian hands would look any better than a nice pair of brown leather gloves.


We have built these forums… to make it easier for you! I personally, along with many other costumers have gone out of our way to build countless tutorials on just these sort of things… to help make it easier. One of the main reasons these forums exist is to make it easier for our fellow costumers in creating things they never thought possible! Local armor parties, local base get togethers… all these things are in place at a local level to help you... make it easier. The Rebel Legion has made it as easy as it can be to get a great costume… short of building it for you.

Have you ever tried to make your own armor, or casting? Do you know what happens if you never try?… nothing….
Give it a go, you might be pleasantly surprised!

I bring people over to my house all the time and I teach them the basic skills they thought they could never have learned. It still amazes me how often they get the bug and become infatuated with their newly found skills!

I am no artist and have learned how to do many of these skills from these boards by people who also struggled thru try after try. It took me 2 years to make a wookiee costume... of which has been upgraded at least 3 times in 4 years. Nothing happens overnight... and good things do take time, and patience.

Give it a try! We all learned the same way… by taking that first step into a larger world.":

I mean no dis-respect, just not a fan of the idea of quiting before one even tries!

We have your back if you need help.

Bob
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Schph Gochi (Phyllis Schulte)
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 07, 2012 11:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

speaking as a Judge..
and speaking with regard to generic Jedi...

I usually disregard the gloves as an "accessory"...and do not consider them at all in the judging process..

I look at the rest of the costume to see if it meets standards...

the exception is usually an "Anakin" glove..
if the costumer is not applying as Anakin..
then I ask them to remove the Anakin glove...

but that is just me..

Also as a judge..
yes..
the standards get tweaked continually as issues come up..
but at the end of the day..
if you wanted to address each and every tiny nuance, the Standards would be excessively long...
that is why judges will often confer during the judging process and come to a conclusion...
and..
also remember that judges come and go...
those who are judging this month may not be judging next month..
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 07, 2012 11:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Like Phyllis, I believe gloves would be all right, if they match the costume in colour codes and such Smile Gloves can add a little extra to the costume, and for generic jedi, that would be perfectly all right Smile

As others have said, a glove should not be used to cheat your way out of alien hands. Often, aliens would have hands that wouldn't even fit in a glove, and then it would just seem silly Smile
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Tag Aldeggon ()
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 07, 2012 7:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I concur. If you are depicting an alien that has unusual anatomy in the hands, then you should at least modify the gloves to look as though they contain the correct hand inside. If that means longer fingers, or fewer, or whatever, then try to make it look right. Even if it isn't judged, it will still make your costume all the more authentic looking.

Cool
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