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Lando Calrissian (ESB)
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Blair (Vlastimil Sprta)
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 13, 2012 1:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

SoloYT1300 wrote:
Do we want to start making standards based what is actual or what is movie accurate?

Because if we start down that road... Hans ESB Jacket is not blue its charcoal.

Hans Hoth Jacket is brown not blue...

Han wears a vintage sweat T under his ESB shirt

Hans ESB jacket is lined a specific color (Many in RL are not even lined)

Han's ESB Jacket Has sets of detailed stitching on both sleeves upper and lower pocket on sleves both arms.

How many belt loops are on Han's Pants.


LOL ... Robert ... colors are one thing, but knee high, mid-calf, etc. is something else Wink


SoloYT1300 wrote:
My point is... if we start getting as picky as to say how high his boots go up his pant leg... then we have failed to realize the importance of movie accurate... its what is in the movie... not the actual costume itself.


High of boots obviously is not "picky" ... if it is, why we have Han Solo boots specified as "knee-high" ? ...


SoloYT1300 wrote:
Again with the Leia standards....

No one is saying that Lando should not have accurate heal hight... and even the Leia standards do not say anything about the shaft heigh for that standard... She is in a gown he is in slacks... yet you want him to have a height requirement?

That makes no sense Blair...


Loose the caps please...

Bob


Yes, I will loose caps, because not even caps help you read what I wrote ...

So, once again for last time: you see as main issue that high of Lando boots is not directly visible in move ... because boots are covering by pants ...

... and I am pointing, that in RL are already standards, which are requiring some elements -> elements which are not visible in movie at all ... and good example is Leia Celebration costume and her heels ...

Leia: boots heel not visible at all in movie, BUT requiring in standards

Lando: boots high not visible at all in movie, BUT NOT requiring because it is "picky" ?

It seems to be hypocritical ...

Mine last try Wink ... because I am not able to say, if it is too hard to understand this point ... or just somebody don't wanna understand Smile
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 13, 2012 1:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

That's a bit of a conundrum.

If at no point in the movie you can see the top of Lando's boots, that is something an approvable costume would need to replicate.

Of course that doesn't mean the pants could be made too long to make sure your socks don't show.

The costume has to look like it does in the movie and fit like it does in the movie.

As long as you can't see where the boots end in the movie and in the member's costume, I don't think I could deny it whether they are ankle, calf, knee or thigh boots. It might not be prop accurate but it is screen accurate.

Perhaps we could translate "boot tops never visible below the trouser leg" / "no socks showing" into a helpful updated standards requirement?

But if we are keeping things simple in the standards, perhaps it is better to go with (at least?) calf length boots?

Edit - before even posting! Added the below:

Blair - comparing the never seen on screen but required Leia heel, to the never seen on screen but potentially required length of Lando's boot - as two details never seen, but one is listed as a requirement so shouldn't the other be a requirement too? That is not a bad point. It is a bit of an inconsistency, and that is rarely a good thing. But while I'm a big advocate of cross character standards and principles consistency, I don't know the background of the Leia heel requirement and I don't know if the same principles behind that apply, are appropriate, or should be applied here.

Either way, Bob and Blair, if you want to argue the application of defining requirements for prop accuracy verses screen accuracy, I believe PMing each other is the preferred method. Or take it to its own appropriate thread.

Never a dull thread on the Fringe boards!
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 13, 2012 1:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

theeviltwin wrote:

Blair - comparing the never seen on screen but required Leia heel, to the never seen on screen but potentially required length of Lando's boot - as two details never seen, but one is listed as a requirement so shouldn't the other be a requirement too? That is not a bad point. It is a bit of an inconsistency, and that is rarely a good thing. But while I'm a big advocate of cross character standards and principles consistency, I don't know the background of the Leia heel requirement and I don't know if the same principles behind that apply, are appropriate, or should be applied here.


Thank you! ( for understanding this point Wink ) ...

ps: I think (I am not Leia expert Wink ) main reason is promo shots of this costume Wink





Wink
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 13, 2012 10:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Blair wrote:
SoloYT1300 wrote:
Do we want to start making standards based what is actual or what is movie accurate?

Because if we start down that road... Hans ESB Jacket is not blue its charcoal.

Hans Hoth Jacket is brown not blue...

Han wears a vintage sweat T under his ESB shirt

Hans ESB jacket is lined a specific color (Many in RL are not even lined)

Han's ESB Jacket Has sets of detailed stitching on both sleeves upper and lower pocket on sleves both arms.

How many belt loops are on Han's Pants.


LOL ... Robert ... colors are one thing, but knee high, mid-calf, etc. is something else Wink


You're missing the point…

My point was just because we know something about a costume via a promo shot should not be the only factor on the standards, we also need to consider how it looks in the movies. We do not get a clear exact count of the belt loops.. so we go with what we have. We do not see the detailing on the ESB jacket clear enough in the movie… so it's not in the standards. We see the Hoth jacket as almost Blue sometimes in ESB… so we compromise the standards to reflect what we know… versus what we see. That’s is the difficulty of building standards, the compromise of both worlds. It's not compromising the quality of the standards... it's a compromise to the standards. One that will never been noticed at an event or by the public.

The boots are not seen as being mid-calf in the movie and as such should be reflected in the standards. That’s the compromise without loosing the image of Lando for the completed costume… to allow lower boots, as long as they are not seen. I see nothing wrong with those boots posted earlier for Lando boots.


Blair wrote:

SoloYT1300 wrote:
My point is... if we start getting as picky as to say how high his boots go up his pant leg... then we have failed to realize the importance of movie accurate... its what is in the movie... not the actual costume itself.


High of boots obviously is not "picky" ... if it is, why we have Han Solo boots specified as "knee-high" ? ...


Han’s boots are outside of his pants… not inside like Lando’s. Your example should not apply and is not the same situation. Han’s boot hight is applicable for its seen in the movie where Lando’s boot height is not seen at all.


Blair wrote:

SoloYT1300 wrote:
Again with the Leia standards....

No one is saying that Lando should not have accurate heal hight... and even the Leia standards do not say anything about the shaft heigh for that standard... She is in a gown he is in slacks... yet you want him to have a height requirement?

That makes no sense Blair...


Loose the caps please...

Bob


Yes, I will loose caps, because not even caps help you read what I wrote ...

So, once again for last time: you see as main issue that high of Lando boots is not directly visible in move ... because boots are covering by pants ...

... and I am pointing, that in RL are already standards, which are requiring some elements -> elements which are not visible in movie at all ... and good example is Leia Celebration costume and her heels ...

Leia: boots heel not visible at all in movie, BUT requiring in standards

Lando: boots high not visible at all in movie, BUT NOT requiring because it is "picky" ?

It seems to be hypocritical ...

Mine last try Wink ... because I am not able to say, if it is too hard to understand this point ... or just somebody don't wanna understand Smile


You say Leia’s shoe heel height is a requirement and a deal breaker… but it is not Blair… it’s recommended…

Ceremonial Leia standards state:
5. Silver shoes up to a 2” heel (recommended).


The reason it's recommended is because of what your talking about… it’s not seen in the movie. The only reason it’s even in the standard is so Leias out there don’t start wearing Stiletto style heels with that costume… for that would just look awkward.


Blair, Greg… all…

We may be getting upset about things, and tempers may get the best of us at times… but let's remember what we are doing here. We all want the same thing, better costume standards. Let's work together to make these standards right so the originator of this thread does not think we are just here to fight.

Let's stay focused and maintain a friendly enviroment.



Bob
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 14, 2012 7:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

SoloYT1300 wrote:

You're missing the point…

My point was just because we know something about a costume via a promo shot should not be the only factor on the standards, we also need to consider how it looks in the movies. We do not get a clear exact count of the belt loops.. so we go with what we have. We do not see the detailing on the ESB jacket clear enough in the movie… so it's not in the standards. We see the Hoth jacket as almost Blue sometimes in ESB… so we compromise the standards to reflect what we know… versus what we see. That’s is the difficulty of building standards, the compromise of both worlds. It's not compromising the quality of the standards... it's a compromise to the standards. One that will never been noticed at an event or by the public.


Nobody was speaking here about "only factor on the standards" ... I was just simply against ignoring facts we know about those boots ... that is all ...

Yes, all is about compromise ... AND I already wroted in one previous posts ... also proposal how this could be solved ... BUT obviously nobody read it ...

Anyway Greg already did some another good proposals ...

SoloYT1300 wrote:
You say Leia’s shoe heel height is a requirement and a deal breaker… but it is not Blair… it’s recommended…

Ceremonial Leia standards state:
5. Silver shoes up to a 2” heel (recommended).


The reason it's recommended is because of what your talking about… it’s not seen in the movie. The only reason it’s even in the standard is so Leias out there don’t start wearing Stiletto style heels with that costume… for that would just look awkward.


Yes ... so, in the end it is not so bad to reflect something what is not seen in movie in standard ... Smile


SoloYT1300 wrote:
Blair, Greg… all…

We may be getting upset about things, and tempers may get the best of us at times… but let's remember what we are doing here. We all want the same thing, better costume standards. Let's work together to make these standards right so the originator of this thread does not think we are just here to fight.

Let's stay focused and maintain a friendly enviroment.

Bob


Yes Bob, let's stay focused and maintain a friendly enviroment Smile
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 14, 2012 11:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

So I spent some time with my wife looking at the standards and this is what we came up with for a compromise.

Let me know what you think...

Lando Calrissian (Episode V: The Empire Strikes Back, Bespin)
Required Items:
  1. Tailored-fit shirt with long full sleeves of a medium blue matte fabric. The sleeves are gathered to narrow cuffs, with a narrow band collar and placket of a black or dark ink blue leather or pleather.
  2. Tailored plain-front pants of a dark navy matte fabric.
  3. Wide belt with narrow trapezoidal sections of a black or dark ink blue leather or pleather. The central section, or “buckle”, of the belt has an embossed Art Deco-like zig-zag pattern.
  4. Low-heeled, plain, tailored ankle or mid-calf boots in a black or dark ink blue leather or pleather.
  5. Full circle cape of a medium blue matte fabric, lined in a burnished gold Asian brocade in a dense “dragon” pattern, with a wide fold-over collar of a black or dark ink blue leather or pleather. The cape should end below the knees.
  6. Wrist communicator consisting of a thick square silver face with red, silver and black button details attached to a plain black band. The communicator is worn with the silver face on the inside of the wrist.

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PostPosted: Sun Jul 15, 2012 11:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Maybe we could "Wrist communicator" and "E-11 blaster rifle" put as optional with requesting at least one ... what do you think?

ps: and any thoughts about "mustache" ? Smile ...
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 15, 2012 2:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Blair wrote:
Maybe we could "Wrist communicator" and "E-11 blaster rifle" put as optional with requesting at least one ... what do you think?

ps: and any thoughts about "mustache" ? Smile ...


I still need to do more homework on this costume, but for standards:

If it is on their person all the time it should not be an option in the standards. So if Lando has a wrist communicator throughout the movie... then it should be a mandatory requirement for the standard... not an option.

Now I know he does not have a blaster all the time, so that IMO would be an option as an accessory... not for formal.

The Fringe is one of the only costume sections on our board that uses the optional section of the standards to get to formal. I am not a fan of this 2 out of 3 stuff for formal. If all 3 things are on costume 100% of time, then all 3 items should be met to get formal. 2 out of 3 weakens the standards IMO.

IMO it should be kept simple:

If it's an item that is on the costume 100% of time, it should not be an option....


The mustache I guess could be considered iconic... like Leias hair buns I guess. The smile thing is cute, but not needed... I am fine either way with the smile, for I like a good joke. Laughing

Bob
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 15, 2012 4:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

SoloYT1300 wrote:
So I spent some time with my wife looking at the standards and this is what we came up with for a compromise.

Let me know what you think...

Lando Calrissian (Episode V: The Empire Strikes Back, Bespin)
Required Items:
  1. Tailored-fit shirt with long full sleeves of a medium blue matte fabric. The sleeves are gathered to narrow cuffs, with a narrow band collar and placket of a black or dark ink blue leather or pleather.
  2. Tailored plain-front pants of a dark navy matte fabric.
  3. Wide belt with narrow trapezoidal sections of a black or dark ink blue leather or pleather. The central section, or “buckle”, of the belt has an embossed Art Deco-like zig-zag pattern.
  4. Low-heeled, plain, tailored ankle or mid-calf boots in a black or dark ink blue leather or pleather.
  5. Full circle cape of a medium blue matte fabric, lined in a burnished gold Asian brocade in a dense “dragon” pattern, with a wide fold-over collar of a black or dark ink blue leather or pleather. The cape should end below the knees.
  6. Wrist communicator consisting of a thick square silver face with red, silver and black button details attached to a plain black band. The communicator is worn with the silver face on the inside of the wrist.


I really like the use of the term "leather or leather-look" used in the other standards. If we aren't going to specify the exact prop material, it's whether it looks like it does in the movie that counts. Some not real leathers look more leather-like than others. So I would change "pleather" to "leather-look" to avoid issues and make as many screen accurate options as possible available.

While you don't see how high Lando's boots go up in the movie because the tops are covered by the pants, the standards have to reflect that you never get to learn what colour socks Lando wears (there is never a gap between boot top and pant leg bottom). I fear that ankle boots aren't going to cover it and in general posing / trooping the bottom of the pant leg will move above the top of an ankle boot. This is just a concern - but as Lando is a primary hero character, it has to be done extra carefully. So to promote prop and screen accuracy, I would propose something like "mid-calf (recommended) or sufficiently tall enough for the tops to remain covered by the pant leg".

E11 optional? It could be argued that you could take the cape out of the primary standards, then make either the cape or the E11 required. Or you could argue that there needs to be two Cloud City Lando standards - Lando Baron Administrator (the cape and no blaster look) and the Lando Bespin Escape (no cape and an optional E11)..?
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 16, 2012 1:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well I'm not that fond on "too high" requirements.
Because that, IMO is the reason many people never try these costumes.
Because if we don't have were to buy the specific materials or items for each costume, we must then give some flexibility for what's available in the market that will do.

About the leia shoes, I say it's ok silver shoes, but the hight of the heel is something suggested, 'cause not all will be able to find or make those shoes exactly.

As for Lando's boots I say, the requiremente should be of boots with heels. Then put a suggestion on how tall the boot might be, but not a requirement.
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 16, 2012 2:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

theeviltwin wrote:
SoloYT1300 wrote:
So I spent some time with my wife looking at the standards and this is what we came up with for a compromise.

Let me know what you think...

Lando Calrissian (Episode V: The Empire Strikes Back, Bespin)
Required Items:
  1. Tailored-fit shirt with long full sleeves of a medium blue matte fabric. The sleeves are gathered to narrow cuffs, with a narrow band collar and placket of a black or dark ink blue leather or pleather.
  2. Tailored plain-front pants of a dark navy matte fabric.
  3. Wide belt with narrow trapezoidal sections of a black or dark ink blue leather or pleather. The central section, or “buckle”, of the belt has an embossed Art Deco-like zig-zag pattern.
  4. Low-heeled, plain, tailored ankle or mid-calf boots in a black or dark ink blue leather or pleather.
  5. Full circle cape of a medium blue matte fabric, lined in a burnished gold Asian brocade in a dense “dragon” pattern, with a wide fold-over collar of a black or dark ink blue leather or pleather. The cape should end below the knees.
  6. Wrist communicator consisting of a thick square silver face with red, silver and black button details attached to a plain black band. The communicator is worn with the silver face on the inside of the wrist.


I really like the use of the term "leather or leather-look" used in the other standards. If we aren't going to specify the exact prop material, it's whether it looks like it does in the movie that counts. Some not real leathers look more leather-like than others. So I would change "pleather" to "leather-look" to avoid issues and make as many screen accurate options as possible available.

While you don't see how high Lando's boots go up in the movie because the tops are covered by the pants, the standards have to reflect that you never get to learn what colour socks Lando wears (there is never a gap between boot top and pant leg bottom). I fear that ankle boots aren't going to cover it and in general posing / trooping the bottom of the pant leg will move above the top of an ankle boot. This is just a concern - but as Lando is a primary hero character, it has to be done extra carefully. So to promote prop and screen accuracy, I would propose something like "mid-calf (recommended) or sufficiently tall enough for the tops to remain covered by the pant leg".

E11 optional? It could be argued that you could take the cape out of the primary standards, then make either the cape or the E11 required. Or you could argue that there needs to be two Cloud City Lando standards - Lando Baron Administrator (the cape and no blaster look) and the Lando Bespin Escape (no cape and an optional E11)..?


Nice!

But I think communicator should be optional. Then again, looking at it from the point of view (quote- "E11 optional?... cape...) I'm not sure.

Also, you could put a "prefered" note on the type of fabric for the cape. The fabric of the cape is not the same as the shirt it looks like a kind of suede, I can't tell excactly what type, but it sure is more dense, heavier, and darker than the shirt.
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 16, 2012 2:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Feel free to edit the changes you would like to see Ineabelle... I figured you have probably done the most research on the costume, you should have the best insight on it.

Based on what you have written, we can then talk about it... then send it off to the standards committee for final tweaks.

Good work so far!
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 16, 2012 5:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Don´t be to fanatic about these promo pics - while they might be helpfull sometimes, they are plain wrong at other times when it comes down to movie/screen accuracy.

Actors carrying wrong blaster they never carried in any scene, some of them were cobbled together just for these pics. Pics that are not taken at the same time than the movie itself. If some shoes are never seen in the movie, and only on promo pics, then there is no proof they were used while filming. Many things just look as if they made a parts lottery, having people grab their parts blindly.
Without any proof Leia could have used pink sneakers while the temple scene, for more comfort, and the silver shoes for the promo only.

Or switching it the other direction - does a Greedo costumer needs High-Heels to met the standards? There are definatly full body pics of the lady with his upper costume and her pants and High-Heels. Wink
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 17, 2012 12:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lichtbringer wrote:
Don´t be to fanatic about these promo pics - while they might be helpfull sometimes, they are plain wrong at other times when it comes down to movie/screen accuracy.


You can bet on that.
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 30, 2012 1:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hope it's okay to post in this thread, but I wanted to say thanks to the Legion for the advice while putting my son's ESB Lando together. He won't be eligible to join up for a few months due to age, but he trooped at Maker Faire Detroit with us this past week for the first time and is definitely hooked on costuming and "being" Lando. Very Happy I have a few improvements to add over the coming months to get him ready to approval submission when he turns eighteen. Next up for him, General Lando.

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