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Han Solo ESB Carbon Freezing - Standard Removal Proposal
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Nikkos Khann (Conley Nichols)
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 20, 2012 4:46 pm    Post subject: Han Solo ESB Carbon Freezing - Standard Removal Proposal Reply with quote

Han Solo (Episode V: The Empire Strikes Back, Carbon freezing chamber)

http://www.rebellegion.com/about_standards.php?id=8854

Han Solo (Episode V: The Empire Strikes Back, Carbon freezing chamber)

Required Items:

1. White long-sleeve cross-placket shirt with a short mandarin collar
2. Brown pocketless pants with accurate yellow Correllian bloodstripes
3. Black leather belt punctured entirely with rows of three holes and a two-prong buckle
4. Black equestrian-type knee-high boots. (leather or leather-look; no laces).
5. arm restraints

Formal Requirements: (Must have 3 to be formal)

1. Pintuck down the center front of each pant leg
2. Riding seam around the seat and down the back of each pant leg.
3. Embroidered bloodstripes. (about 1 inch wide by 1/4 inch high, with only 1/8 of an inch of space between each embroidered section)
4. No visible zipper on the boots.



It has been proposed that this standard be removed from the Rebel Legion Costume Standards. The reasoning is that this costume is not 'Iconic' enough and there are no current RL Fringe members with this costume.

I have opened this thread for discussion of this matter. I have also included a poll, for or against the removal. This is not a vote, just a consensus poll for consideration.[/quote]
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Last edited by Nikkos Khann (Conley Nichols) on Wed Jun 20, 2012 4:57 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Nikkos Khann (Conley Nichols)
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 20, 2012 4:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Now, having opened the thread for discussion, here are my thoughts.

This may not be an iconic costume but it is very much a part of the Star Wars story. Anyone who is a fan will recognize it.

There are certain times when this costume will be appropriate to use. Sometimes at cons or other events when you have some of the other characters in this scene from the movie, this is a great role-play costume for that.

My 2 cents......Smile

Conley Nichols
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 20, 2012 5:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hello,

I proposed the change. Just a quick correction to the first post - that there are no current RL Fringe members with this costume was NOT part of the reasoning for the change.

Here are my original proposal reasons verbatim:

Why:
- In the same way as the Ep2 Anakin arena costume is, this is just Han's Bespin costume stripped of non-essentials by the bad guys and some restraints slapped on.
- The scene is iconic but the costume isn't in its own right.
- It isn't enough for a formal costume in terms of presence (we would appreciate it but "regular" public may want more and a formal costume should really provide this).
- It isn't consistent with the other standards (e.g. Anakin's)

Cheers.
Greg
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 20, 2012 7:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I was trying to be as neutral as possible with the post by not naming you and by boiling down the reasons. If you look you will see that that is basically the intent. You did mention the fact there was no one in the Legion currently that has one approved.

Yes we do costume for the public, but this is first and foremost a Star Wars Costuming Club, not a public club.

Whose opinion is it that 'It isn't enough for a formal costume in terms of presence (we would appreciate it but "regular" public may want more and a formal costume should really provide this).'

I don't agree that there is not enough substance for a formal costume. It appears to only be your opinion that it is not. If there are others with that opinion, please join in.

-' It isn't consistent with the other standards (e.g. Anakin's) '

Then we make it consistent, don't just throw it out with the bath water.

I would like to hear from other DB94 members about this.
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 20, 2012 7:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Also in regards to:

'In the same way as the Ep2 Anakin arena costume is, this is just Han's Bespin costume stripped of non-essentials by the bad guys and some restraints slapped on. '

And this is a problem how? That is a costume that the character wore in the movie is it not? Just because it is stripped of non-essentials, doesn't make it any less of a costume.

EDITED to include: Perhaps the Anakin costume should not be removed as well? I don't know, because I didn't really follow that process, was the entire detachment in on this discussion as well?

my 2 cents...[/quote]
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 20, 2012 8:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Even if this standard will be removed - anytime ... somebody can step up with this version of Han costume ... and we will need this standard again ... charter is charter ...

Quote:
Formal: Formal is defined as a costume from one of the six Star Wars films, Expanded Universe, or Lucasfilm Licensed Media (TV, books, games, etc.) as it would appear in those materials. Costumes must be complete, containing all the parts in good working order and appearance. All costume submissions must meet the Costume Standards listed in the Costume Standards Master List, on The Rebel Legion website.
Applicants submitting costumes for any Expanded Universe costume must also submit three (3) LFL licensed sources for the character/costume, in order for it to be considered Formal.

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 20, 2012 9:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Is the Carbon Freeze Han costume truly a distinct costume on its own or was it labelled one when it was given standards? Here's an illustration to help explain:

Picture A:


Picture B:


Picture C:


Picture A shows the costume complete and containing all parts.
Picture B shows the same costume as in picture A but the character has has had his gunbelt and associated parts removed.
Picture C shows the same costume as in picture A and B but has lost the gunbelt, associated parts and jacket removed plus restraints added.

They are all one costume not three - the Bespin Han. It is just not worn complete on screen after they are captured. That is one reason (which does fit the charter) why while this is a valid informal (Bespin Han) costume, it isn't a valid formal one.


But what about what does that say about the post trash compactor and the the two Endor standards? I'm not a two wrongs make a right person but I do like consistency. Maybe it is worth considering the classic and post compactor Hans as the same costume with an option of DL44 and gunbelt, or E11 and TK belt (etc.)? And the two Endor costumes as the same costume with optional coat (I know there are other differences with this one)? But these would be a discussion for another day.
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 20, 2012 10:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Is it an easier costume... absolutly...

However we have never disparaged a costume based on its difficulty before. I mean... should we get rid of the icecream maker man on Bespin?, RFT's, or any of the simple denisens that could lead to membership?

To say its not an iconic costume is not quite true either. If it was not iconic we would not have toys!















Not to mention one of the most romantic scenes in the movie and you want to ditch it as a potential costume?



I do understand your concern Greg with thinking people might use this costume standard as a way to by-pass doing the "real costume" with holster and blaster. It's a very valid point. However... as you said right now we do not have a single person with this costume as formal... which is sad, cuz I know we had a few a long time ago. Being that we do not have any formal of this costume... I do not see what the issue is.

For it being an easy costume...

I would say there are less than a dozen or so people that I have seen in the RL who have done Hans pants perfect. With a costume that has little in the way to judge... judge the parts of the costume accordingly. Those pants should be perfect... as well as the shirt boots belt, and binders. If someone can pull off the costume correctly its a great addition to an event that is TK heavy, with Leia, a wookiee and maybe even a vader. It really should make an event a ton more fun adding some roll play into a typically boring event as Han.

If we started deleting standards that are not being used we would have to delete 23!!! Royalty Senatorial standards alone that have been written that have not one formal costume made.

I would normally agree that this costume should not have its own standard if it was only the same costume, but just missing items. However this costume is different enough thru the binders being added, jacket and holster off that it makes sense.

We start nit picking these kind of things we could say that Leias Bespin escape is nothing more than her hoth costume... minus the vest, different boots and a hairstyle change. We could say that Han on the death star with a TK belt is nothing more than a costumer who was unable to make a good rig... so he went the cheap way with a TK belt. We could do these things, but it would only drop our membership numbers.

Keep the standards high, and enforce them accordingly... and whomever does make that costume can only do our Detachment proud because it was approved formal!
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 20, 2012 11:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It keeps coming up that the lack of members with this costume was used in the original proposal as a reason why it should be removed, but this is just not true.

It was in the post, but it was separate to the why list. I stated that no members had the costume to help illustrate the consideration for and immediate impact the change would make on existing members. ie. that we wouldn't have to come up with a solution or assistance for any members as no one was going to be affected.

The relative simplicity was related to the potential for exploitation, and again, was in the original post as a concern but not actually on the proposal reasons why list either. For info it wasn't that it was a relatively simple costume, it was that it was relatively simple and easily up-scalable with a bad gunbelt and jacket. But this is just something the judging and council team need to be aware of and is not a proposal reason.

It is interesting that in over 85% (6 out of the 7) of the toys Bob used to illustrate the iconic-ness of the costume, the carbonite Han comes with the frozen Han in carbonite. Like it is a necessary (required even..?) part to complete the toy... The only reason toy manufacturers would go to the additional expense of manufacturing and including a frozen Han with the carbonite chamber Han is because they don't think carbonite chamber Han is enough on its own for kids to be interested in them.

EDIT ADDED: make that 100% of the toys. The USB stick isn't a toy and really is only ever going to appeal to the super fan / geek who is also going to be in the small demographic who is likely to appreciate a carbonite Han costumer.

If the standards for all the ESB pants, boots, belts and shirts are the same, enforcing them any differently for the carbonite Hans is only going to end up with members quoting the standards and the charter. Although I do think it is right that the less details there are to a costume, the more important it is that they are done perfectly.
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 21, 2012 12:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

My point with the pictures was to show you that the costume in of itself is a stand alone costume... not less of a costume as you seem to think.

Lucast Arts would not have given permisions nore would a Toy company make a toy if for some reason they felt it would not be recognizable.

The fact that it comes with a Han in carbonite? Thats because Han in carbonite is cool, and they kind of work together. I do not think less of the costume because it has an accesory...

I think we are missing the bigger picture.
ask yourself...
What do we gain if we remove the standard as a potential costume? What do we loose if we keep it. Weigh those 2 sentences, and what do you get?
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 21, 2012 1:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I still don't see why you think that the costume is not 'enough'. Just exactly what is 'enough'?

As one of the most romantic scenes in the movie, I don't understand how you can keep insisting that this costume does not have 'enough' for the public.

We are also losing sight that this is a club for fans, both fans who are members and the fans who are the public. This is a Star Wars costuming club and we pride ourselves in making the most movie accurate costumes possible. I do not understand what removing this costume standard will accomplish and frankly, makes me want to get it submitted just because there is not one person who has it approved.

I am working on the ESB Han as we speak and would only have to add the restraints. So why discourage me or anyone the chance at a great costume?
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 21, 2012 2:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wouldn't this be a similar idea to the Bespin/Dagobah Luke Skywalker??

The Dagobah version is the same as the Bespin without the belt/holster combo and a muscle shirt instead of the jacket??

I always thought the determining factor in a costume being legion approvable is as long as there are enough reference materials to be sure it is recreated accurately? I don't remember anything being mentioned about whether it is "Iconic" enough or whether the public would recognize it or not.
Heck, to a large number of people, every while jedi is Obi-Wan, every black jedi is Mace Windu, any mando is Boba or Jango (depending on age) and anyone is black armor is Darth Vader. Wink Laughing

I guess for me, I don't really see where having this as a possible costume is a problem.
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 21, 2012 12:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

There's another common arguement being presented by several people I'd like to respond to in one go - that we would be losing a costume for members to do. Apologies for paraphrasing and not being specific but this is my lunch break and have to get back to work soon.

The answer is we aren't losing a costume at all. It's simply not what I'm suggesting at all. I'm proposing we reclassify it from formal to informal (specifically that it is an informal variant of the Bespin Han). Like other informal costumes that doesn't have to compromise it's accuracy or mean it doesn't have its place. It is just that its place is not broad enough to be formal - the presence or iconic reason.

And I'll try and explain that a bit more by replying to Bob's post in my next post.
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 21, 2012 12:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

OK, I'm on an iPad which isn't the easiest thing to use so if something has gone wrong, I promise I hit the quote button and meant to have 100% of your original post in here Smile

SoloYT1300 wrote:
My point with the pictures was to show you that the costume in of itself is a stand alone costume... not less of a costume as you seem to think.


I know, I just wanted to show how the same evidence can also be used to show how it isn't enough to be standalone in the toy market, which is determined by the same people (SW kids) who would ultimately judge us when we go costuming.

SoloYT1300 wrote:
Lucast Arts would not have given permisions nore would a Toy company make a toy if for some reason they felt it would not be recognizable.


Lucas Arts will do whatever is likely to make them money. They are a commercial company. I remember the first of the new figures that came out for the special editions in the 1990s. They had also all sorts of accessories and vehicles not in the movies. Please don't mistake this as a "toys as references" point. The point I'm trying to make is toy companies will sell what appeals to the market.

SoloYT1300 wrote:
The fact that it comes with a Han in carbonite? Thats because Han in carbonite is cool, and they kind of work together. I do not think less of the costume because it has an accesory...


Toy / merchandise companies aren't interested in selling a product because it is cool or works together. They sell a product to make money. The basic rule of product sales is that you sell the minimum resources for the maximum return. R2 and C3PO are cool and work together, as does carbonite Han and and frozen Han. But while R2 and C3PO come on card backs on their own, carbonite Han (as in your examples) always comes with frozen Han often at the same price as a single R2. The addition of frozen Han isn't like they have thrown in an extra blaster or accessory, it is a significant resource cost (materials, shipping weight, etc.). There is only one reason why they would do that is that it is necessary to add value for fans and kids to want it.

Carbonite Han needs value-add to satisfy enough fans and kids.

We attend a broad variety of events, for a wide variety of "customers". And as a costuming club our customers are both internal (ourselves) and external (event sponsors, the public at events, etc). A formal costume should be appropriate to satisfy as broad enough a range of events and customers as possible. Carbonite Han, as has been pointed out is appreciated internally, and looks great in context with a Fett, Boushn, etc.

But it doesn't stand alone nearly always enough in the public costuming "market" without that value-add.

And it's not always just a question of a members choice of whether they are happy to not be recognised - some event sponsors really do send us invites and provide us with donations, changing areas, refreshments, etc. because they expect us to make an impact.

SoloYT1300 wrote:
I think we are missing the bigger picture.
ask yourself...
What do we gain if we remove the standard as a potential costume? What do we loose if we keep it. Weigh those 2 sentences, and what do you get?


That's a good question and was actually the first question I asked myself. I'm out of time so will have to answer that, the inevitable "what is enough", what does that mean for costume "x" and other questions soon.

PS. I just noticed my spell checker has been auto correcting carbonite as carbonate. If I've missed any, oh well.

Edited to fix the quotes.
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 21, 2012 4:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

theeviltwin wrote:
I'm proposing we reclassify it from formal to informal (specifically that it is an informal variant of the Bespin Han).


Your original proposal was to remove it entirely. So now you are proposing to reclassify the standard? I would be more inclined to go along with that proposal. However, I still think it should be a standalone formal costume.
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