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Female Smuggler
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Blair (Vlastimil Sprta)
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PostPosted: Thu May 03, 2012 12:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

theeviltwin wrote:
Autumn Knight wrote:
I'm then wondering why there seems to be a custom outfit accepted into the fringe members? I brought up to her it may have been possible looking through the current charter and had noticed that there was one twi'lek smuggler, and she stood out to me.

http://www.rebellegion.com/forum/costume.php?mode=view&c=3965

Is she an exception to this rule?


I also know the current detachment charter mentions generic smugglers. But just because it mentions them, the charter does not make provision for them to exist. That they are even mentioned in the charter may have been an oversight. All I can say is that under the current standards, rules and requirements, it is not possible to accept custom or generic smugglers, formal or informal. Sorry.


Maybe I should little bit clarify this ... DB94 charter was done as copy-paste of Jedi detachment charter and part about "Generic New Republic, Generic Old Republic" was copy-paste mistake ...

With DCO we are aware about this mistake and we are working on revision of whole charter right now Wink
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PostPosted: Thu May 03, 2012 12:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Havok69 wrote:
Since we have the ear of the LCJ here, what about a femm Solo? Would that be allowed?

(If so, I propose a double standard: no dude Slave Leias!)

Razz


This is another valid question. In fact this is one of a few questions I had to answer for myself when I was offered the role of LCJ before I could accept in good conscience.

The short answer is no and that is a Legion wide rule for all relevant characters, formal and informal. So no - female Han Solos and no male Slave Leias and I too can only wear my metal bikini around the house! Very Happy

The decision I personally came to was no as well and here is why. As SW costumers we have a responsibiliy to respect the SW characters themselves and the SW story. So taking a female Han as an example, is it vital to the character that Han is male? I'd argue no. Han could have been played by a girl and would have been just as awesome and exactly the same character. Is it vital to the story that Han is male - yes. In the EU SW story Han marries Princess Leia, they have children and it is made clear that their children inherit genetic characteristics from Han and Leia. I'm not a doctor, but I'm pretty sure that for both parents to pass on genetic traits, one parent has to be male, the other female (I vaguely remember reading something that there may technically be an altnative, but for the sake of arguement I'm going to assume Han and Leia's DNA were combined using the traditional building blocks). While it is not essential to Han's character that he is male, it is essential to Princess Leia's character that she is female as it is specified in her name - Princess. So Leia must be female and Han must therefore be male.

That doesn't mean that costumes for female characters that completely obscure body shape (where there is no possible way of telling whether the wearer was male or female) can only be approved for female members (and vice versa) such as clones. I'd highly recommend discussing such a possible costume direct with the relevant LCJ before starting it though to make sure it will be OK.

I hope this makes sense. I try and keep an eye on Fringe related posts but they are easy to miss sometimes when things are really busy. I absolutely welcome questions, advice and (constructive Wink) opinions, either open ones posted on the forums, PM'd direct to me or even asked at CVI which I'll be coming to.
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Nikkos Khann (Conley Nichols)
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PostPosted: Thu May 03, 2012 7:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I hate to throw a wrench in the works, but there is at least one female playing a male character in my own base.



http://www.rebellegion.com/forum/profile.php?mode=viewprofile&u=6861


She has been approved formal. So that entire argument is mute and needs to be reconsidered.

Also Article I of the Rebel Legion Charter states that we DO NOT discriminate due to sex.
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theeviltwin ()
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PostPosted: Thu May 03, 2012 11:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nikkos Khann wrote:
I hate to throw a wrench in the works, but there is at least one female playing a male character in my own base.



http://www.rebellegion.com/forum/profile.php?mode=viewprofile&u=6861


She has been approved formal. So that entire argument is mute and needs to be reconsidered.

Also Article I of the Rebel Legion Charter states that we DO NOT discriminate due to sex.


Again another valid point(s) and while I had to seek advice, I wasn't surprised someone had brought this up. One thing I can't do is comment on what has gone before. Big changes, clarifications and redefinitions have been made over a very short and recent period of time. I also don't have access to all the information that went into a previous application decision. There may be important reasons beyond the picture that remains in a member's profile as to why a costume was cleared or not.

While the requirements are there to help a member submit a costume and help the LCJ judge it, they aren't always the full story. It is down to an LCJ to ultimately make the judgement and the LCJs have the power of discretion. No set of rules can ever cover 100% of the application situations and that is where the LCJ's discretion gets used.

You have to have at least a resemblance to the character whose costume you want to be approved with. To be honest defining "resemblance" as an objective list is impossible and whether you have that resemblance or not is the LCJ's call. Generally it is difficult to impossible for a male member to resemble a female character, just as it is for a female member to resemble a male character. A male member resembling Leia in her metal bikini is almost impossible. For me it is impossible to resemble Leia in any of her costumes no matter how hard I work on it. A female member resembling Han or Luke is difficult. But as with Conley's good example it is not impossible. For all but a few it would take extra effort beyond the requirements to achieve that resemblance. But if it is possible and the applicant can demonstrate they have achieved that undefinable resemblance, I can and will use my LCJ discretion to approve a female member Solo (or other Fringe character).

This isn't a question of discrimination due to sex. Membership is determined by having a formal costume, not by insisting on a specific costume that one sex cannot achieve. The bias of what number and types of costumes is in reality easier for one sex than the other to pass as formal was defined when this was specified a SW costume club and Uncle George wrote the story. When the casting call went out for a specifically male actor to play Han Solo in ANH, they weren't discriminating against female actors. They were just meeting the requirements of the movie. We have to match the movie as well with accurate representations of the costumes and by resembling the characters.

So the short answer is on balance still no. But only the Sith deal in certainties Wink. Im pleased to say there can be rare approvals of such costume submissions and using their powers of discretion for the benefit of the Legion is one of the responsibilities of the LCJ.
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Blair (Vlastimil Sprta)
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PostPosted: Fri May 04, 2012 8:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes, membership is determined by having a formal costume ... so, from charter and standards view ... if some lady would like to join RL with accurate Han Solo costume (related to standards) ...

... it will be against RL charter to not approve application like this Wink ...
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PostPosted: Fri May 04, 2012 10:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Blair wrote:
Yes, membership is determined by having a formal costume ... so, from charter and standards view ... if some lady would like to join RL with accurate Han Solo costume (related to standards) ...

... it will be against RL charter to not approve application like this Wink ...



Yes but not all the time. Yes anyone (boy or girl) can be approved with a formal costume if that costume has all the requirements in the standards. But only if it doesn't have "unacceptable qualities" as well. In which case the application will still be denied. I put "unacceptable qualities" in quotes as these are impossible to define or list in full. And I also couldn't think of a better term than "unacceptable qualities" as I'm a bit short on sleep at the moment. It's an additional unacceptable quality or feature not covered in the standards that means the applicant hasn't pulled off the look, something drags the costume back into the real world, it doesn't stand a chance of looking like it stepped out of the movie, all resemblance is lost, etc. The fit of a costume is one example of this, the proportionality of the costume parts is another. You can have the most accurate Solo pants in the world - you could even have the actual prop worn by Harrison Ford in one of the movies. But if they are so big on you that they come up to your arm pits I'm still going to deny your application.

Just to be clear...

The charter states that costumes must meet the standards in the requirements and that the standards are used to judge whether a costume is, rejected, approved formal or approved informal. But it doesn't state that the standards are the only factors on which a costume is rejected or approved.

I've only really been able to argue on the negative side of things in this thread, which I can appreciate could make me seem really strict and a total elitist ogre. Such is the curse of the LCJ I guess. I fully appreciate and factor into the judging that we live in the real world where perfection is impossible ("only God is perfect") and there are practicalities we have to live with. I also believe in the mission and values of the RL and will use the rules to attempt to promote them, not hold them back. One of the reasons why judging a costume is far more than running through a tick list is so we can be flexible and make human judgements where we have to.
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PostPosted: Sat May 05, 2012 1:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I feel like I helped open up a whole can of worms, here...LoL...

First let me thank the LCJ for his candid, frank, and dedicated responses...you're quick and reasonable; though, I can also understand the other POV--especially since I was coming from it.

Let me also say I was pleased to, of course, read about the breakdown of the costume I was going for--yes, perhaps I would have better luck in the Rebel Supporters as I'm going for an alien race more than a smuggler and, that, also this base race can have many costumes to go with it. Anything from Jedi Aayla to Smuggler X, the sky's the limit.

If you want to be a female Han Solo, go for it. I want to be a Smuggler Twi'lek, and I'm going to go for it--RL approved or not, it's going to rock at cons. Maybe you can't formally parade in it or, maybe, you'll rock it so hard it'll get RL approved. Maybe that can be a challenge for you and, if you don't become approved, just know you're still bad-arse enough to have made it. To me, it's reading more that you're basing this on an individual and not as a whole. I know I couldn't pull off a female Solo because I have long hair and, well, accents he didn't. But if I dug the costume, I'd still do it and then saw what happened. Even if it's just for me and those times were I'm not officially trooping.

These forums are awesome, awesome things--and lets not forget we're all creative, inspiring people. I have seen everyone contribute and create great things without boundary. So rock on. And thanks for answering.
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PostPosted: Fri May 11, 2012 9:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This thread evolved beyond what I thought it would. I understand about the generic smuggler. What about a female Corellian pilot? My understanding is that the bloodstripes and the vest are an unofficial way of dress for that quadrant if your a pilot. And if you choose you don't have to be human.
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PostPosted: Sun May 13, 2012 12:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bonded Hawk wrote:
This thread evolved beyond what I thought it would. I understand about the generic smuggler. What about a female Corellian pilot? My understanding is that the bloodstripes and the vest are an unofficial way of dress for that quadrant if your a pilot. And if you choose you don't have to be human.


There has been a comparable discussion in the Rebel Pilot circles about the possibility of an off duty, civilian or even ground fatigues look. At the moment there isn't enough definition / identifiability or consistency for that kind of costume or a Corellian pilot approved for Rebel Legion membership.

Consistency is an issue as without this there can be no standard to use and no quality control. Identifiability is an issue and arguably an even more important. If a costume doesn't follow a recognisable SW standard there is no way of it defining an entity from the SW saga. We are committed to costuming as recognisable SW characters approved by the Rebel Legion application process while representing the Rebel Legion at events.

The way I look at it, a recognisable SW entity needs to be either either a visually recognisable character, a member of a group with a defining "uniform" / dress code, or a member of a distinctive looking species. All of these need clear references and have to be visually recognisable by SW fans.

I vaguely remember it may have been suggested that the vest, stripes, tools and gun belt is a common look for Corellian pilot types too. I think may have been in places like the West End Games RPG books and the older EU. But there isn't anything nearly definitive enough for a Corellian pilot "uniform". It would be great if there was and I'm sure the search will go on for one.

The standards can change with new information, references, discoveries and material. These threads are really important and useful for expanding what we know and maybe even adding costume options to the roster. Just because there isn't currently a known case for a costume doesn't mean we aren't open to one we don't know about.
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PostPosted: Sun May 13, 2012 2:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Good enough. Thanks. I'm in the middle of my own blaster belt. I think I'll hold off on my wife's for a while.

BH
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PostPosted: Sun May 13, 2012 2:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

theeviltwin wrote:


There has been a comparable discussion in the Rebel Pilot circles about the possibility of an off duty, civilian or even ground fatigues look. At the moment there isn't enough definition / identifiability or consistency for that kind of costume or a Corellian pilot approved for Rebel Legion membership.


Actually, you are only correct about the Corellian Pilot part of your comment, The Ground uniform issue should be clear cut by Charter standards. 4 Disitinct character sources and 5 seperate Sources has been presented in the discussion. This is MORE then the Charter requires. Why is there no consistancy or definition? The examples presented go above the requiirements.

The only problem I see is the hesitation to place the so called Bespin Fatigues costume into the Pilot catagory. This isn't the first time this happened, when the 3 sepersate source rule was inplimented (by me) The costume WAS recatagoried into the pilot section. Upon my leaving, it was once again removed. The arguement being Luke was a Padawan when he wore the Uniform. A Name that didn't even exist at the time.
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PostPosted: Sun May 13, 2012 4:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

IC-6369 wrote:
theeviltwin wrote:


There has been a comparable discussion in the Rebel Pilot circles about the possibility of an off duty, civilian or even ground fatigues look. At the moment there isn't enough definition / identifiability or consistency for that kind of costume or a Corellian pilot approved for Rebel Legion membership.


Actually, you are only correct about the Corellian Pilot part of your comment, The Ground uniform issue should be clear cut by Charter standards. 4 Disitinct character sources and 5 seperate Sources has been presented in the discussion. This is MORE then the Charter requires. Why is there no consistancy or definition? The examples presented go above the requiirements.

The only problem I see is the hesitation to place the so called Bespin Fatigues costume into the Pilot catagory. This isn't the first time this happened, when the 3 sepersate source rule was inplimented (by me) The costume WAS recatagoried into the pilot section. Upon my leaving, it was once again removed. The arguement being Luke was a Padawan when he wore the Uniform. A Name that didn't even exist at the time.


I actually agree with you that Luke's "Bespin Fatigues" should be considered standard pilot's ground fatigues. I personally would not define them as Padawan garb. It makes no logical story sense, while Luke / his disciples using what he happened to find practical as training garb as a basis for what they train in does.

Consistency and recognisability is still an issue. Yes the sources are consistent, but other than Luke they are very few and obscure. The discussion may go on whether it is a pilot or Padawan or even a true uniform, but it is undoubtably an iconic Luke costume. 9 out of 10 fans will not be aware that anyone other than Luke wears it. It isn't like the pilot flightsuits, Jedi robes or RFT uniforms where you see loads of them in the movies. The result will be that 9 out of 10 fans will think you are trying to costume as Luke (possibly mistakenly perceived to be poorly executed as you intentionally won't have all Luke's details) - whether you are costuming as a pilot ground fatigues or a NR Padawan. We do have a responsibility to be recognisable (within reason) when costuming in our RL approved costumes, and the rules and regs are there to help us achieve that.

This does have relevance to the issue of generic smugglers / Corellian pilots. You could argue that the classic vest, pants, gun belt, bloodstripes, etc. could form the basis of a generic costume. But if that results in a look close enough to an iconic hero costumes such as Han's or Luke's ceremony, it doesn't matter what you mean to costume as, the vast majority of fans will only ever think you are costuming in a (sub-standard) hero costume. We have to remember we are costuming for and have a responsibility to our event sponsors, the fans / public as well as the Rebel Legion and it's charter.
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PostPosted: Sun May 13, 2012 6:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

My take on the female's playing Han Solo.

I have seen a few females make up really great Luke costumes, and see no reason why they can't make up Han costumes. Long as they meet all requirements that are in the standards.

Here is the rub though. You may get your costume approved, and have a kick arzse costume... but it is still up the event coordinator if you are allowed to troop in it. If the event coordinator has a legitimate complaint as to how you look in costume at anytime can prevent you from trooping. If your costume is in disrepair, doesn’t fit you, missing items, or over all appearance… then the event coordinator can prevent you from trooping.

I can promise you this... there will never be a guy dressed up as a slave Leia in my area unless he looks like Slave Leia (the whole appearance). My BCO and the event coordinators know what is best for the RL at a local level. So technically... yeah a guy can make a slave Leia costume as formal... and a girl can make a Han. Long as they meet all aspects of the costume. Last I checked Leia never had a beard or 12 o’clock shadow…

Trooping with a costume of such debate is another topic altogether though... those decisions should be made by event coordinators and BCO’s... not the LCJ.


The idea of Generic smugglers should be put to rest... for there is no way to control the quality.

Want proof? Look at the Generic Jedi’s we have in the RL. Not to jab at them, but the Jedi have a set standard as to what is allowed and what isn’t based on “Basic Jedi wear and colors”. With as organized as they are in the standards there will always be issues as to what is allowed and what represents us at events.

Smugglers have little to nothing in common and because of this we could never write standards to “Cover” all aspects of the many smuggler types that are out there. Basically we would be opening Pandora’s box on what was allowed… bad for quality checking.

My 2 cents or so…

Bob
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PostPosted: Sun May 13, 2012 7:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

theeviltwin wrote:
We have to remember we are costuming for and have a responsibility to our event sponsors, the fans / public as well as the Rebel Legion and it's charter.


Event sponsors, well, they would set the requirements for costumes, there is no way to wear a custom costume (of any kind) to a Formal event. But a con, where custom costumes are most likeply to be worn, who are we not being responsible to? I can tell you without a doubt that changing the colors or even some details of a cosutme does not confuse the public. I probably got a better reaction to the "Hawkbat" Pilot costume then I did to the Canon Orange costume.

As for what we are costuming for, at one time, the answer to that was very easy. it was for fun. As a founding member of this group, it was extremely important to Keep this fact at the forefront.

the very reason we included informal costumes was to allow people to express themselves in costume. This included custom costumes. of all sorts. you put a twi Lek in a Han costume and people will get it. They are smarter then you seem to give them credit for. (substandard costume?)

And it seems you have increased the requirements to getting a costume approved from beyond what the charter says. adding in Consistency and recognisability. If this was a requirement, most if not all EU characters will need to be removed from the Formal list. Talon Karrde looks like a poor man's Han Solo. Kyle Katarn as well. Guri is just a yellow and blue dress. And Mirex Terric is too plain to realy be star Wars. Of course all of these costume HAVE been made formal. But to the lay person at a con (who your argument points to as the auduence we play to, will not reconize them.

My Question is, does the 3 source rule decide the acceptibilty of a costume or is it the LCJ's opinion on Consistency and recognisability?
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PostPosted: Sun May 13, 2012 9:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

IC-6369 wrote:
My Question is, does the 3 source rule decide the acceptibilty of a costume or is it the LCJ's opinion on Consistency and recognisability?


Rebel Legion charter is clear with it:

Article II: Costume Standards

Quote:
Formal: Formal is defined as a costume from one of the six Star Wars films, Expanded Universe, or Lucasfilm Licensed Media (TV, books, games, etc.) as it would appear in those materials. Costumes must be complete, containing all the parts in good working order and appearance. All costume submissions must meet the Costume Standards listed in the Costume Standards Master List, on The Rebel Legion website.
Applicants submitting costumes for any Expanded Universe costume must also submit three (3) LFL licensed sources for the character/costume, in order for it to be considered Formal.


... but ... it depends on LMO if he consider those 3 sources as "valuable" ... LCJ on another hand approving quality of costume ... (I was in middle of this process when my New Jedi Order Han Solo costume was approving ... Wink ) ...
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