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ANH DL-44 question
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Is it acceptable to have a modded rubies DL-44 blaster?
Yes, for both formal, and non formal
73%
 73%  [ 11 ]
Yes, but only for non formal events
13%
 13%  [ 2 ]
No, just for halloween
6%
 6%  [ 1 ]
Other
6%
 6%  [ 1 ]
Users Voted : 15
Total Votes : 15
This poll has expired.
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KA-513 ()
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 28, 2012 2:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I would still say no to that. I checked the math, and the least expensive resin replica of a DL-44, marketed by doopydoos, runs 74.02 USD with shipping. With the right glue and paint (not the cheapo dollar store stuff, but the good stuff), that takes that cost up to over 100USD. Cost for a properly modified toy: ~25USD for the base, the paints, and sales tax.

Also, toys aside, you're forgetting that there are plastic airsoft bases that can be used to produce wonderful results.

Overall, I still see no reason to do a blanket ban on modified toy guns. There will always be those who want to take their costumes to the next level, and there will always be those who don't see a point in justifying the time and expense for extreme accuracy.

To my understanding, the Standards are simply the minimum acceptable quality of costume. Pretty much the best balance of cost and accuracy possible. Sure, some kids might go "oh, that's not a real blaster. the real one has x, y, and z". Heck, some kids get upset because the darned thing doesn't really shoot. That's always going to happen, even if one uses a real demilled C-96 for a base. Keeping that in mind, it doesn't make sense to tighten the thumbscrews on this, aside from maybe elitism, which again, is going to happen regardless. We could also loose new members when they start ringing up price tags in their head.
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SoloYT1300 (Robert Kohn)
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 28, 2012 2:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

If the RL ever goes down the path of an Elite costume catagory... it will not effect the membership 1 bit. For it would not be a requirement for membership. It would only be there for those who WANT to take the costume to the next level.

If they decide to take it to the next level... they get a cookiee (IE a special title next to the costume).

If anything... if we made a tougher Elite costume catagory we could loosen the standards (not that I recemend it) for Formal.


Bob
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Havok69 ()
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 28, 2012 2:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think the real issue here is people are hung up on the Formal status. In addition to the standards change, they should also modify the charter to allow Informal members the same benefits as Formal members currently enjoy.

Then, you can paint that cheap Rubies blaster and still get approved, with the carrot dangling there to obtain Formal status. (Airsofts are the wrong pistol to start with, hence the omission in the Formal status)

P.S. I want a cookiee!

(I saw what you did there - I like it!)
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Blair (Vlastimil Sprta)
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 28, 2012 8:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Havok69 wrote:
4. Black or dark brown leather belt punctured entirely with rows of three holes and a bronze two-prong buckle


You are trying it again? Very Happy

Havok69 wrote:
7. DL-44 blaster; either accurate resin cast or Denix\MGC based metal version of the "Hero" or "Greedo Killer", unless local laws prohibit or strongly discourage carrying anything that looks like a firearm. Repainted toys judged only for Informal status.


Not good formulation ... here ... I think it is better to specify WHAT is not approvable THAN write everything which is approvable ... (for example, what is somebody use original mauser? - yes, I still talking about "original mauser", but it is good example Very Happy )

So ...

7. Accurate DL-44 blaster (due to non accuracy Hasbro DL-44 and Kenner DL-44 are not approvable) unless local laws prohibit or strongly discourage carrying anything that looks like a firearm

... I think this formulation is more clear ... Smile
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Havok69 ()
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 28, 2012 12:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Blair wrote:
You are trying it again? Very Happy


I was waiting for someone to catch that... Cool
Blair wrote:

7. Accurate DL-44 blaster (due to non accuracy Hasbro DL-44 and Kenner DL-44 are not approvable) unless local laws prohibit or strongly discourage carrying anything that looks like a firearm

... I think this formulation is more clear ... Smile


That does sound better...
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theeviltwin ()
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 28, 2012 1:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sorry still not had time to finish writing my opinions down but I there are two points that have been raised again I wasn't going to mention - money and membership.

I just cannot accept cost (money) as a reason for keeping he standards lower than "done right". It doesn't make sense nor is it relevant for membership. Specifics aside, a costume should be acceptable as long as it is done right. Some costumes cost more than others to do right - we know and have to accept that. Han Solo costumes are expensive to do right - but not compared to others eg Darth Vader. I would love a Darth Vader costume, but they are more than I can afford. This does not mean I think the requirements for a Vader "done right" are too high, it just means that to be a member of the SW costuming community I have to pick a less expensive costume.

You are not prohibited from joining the Rebel Legion if you cannot afford a Han Solo costume "done right" (in this thread with something better than a toy gun), you just have to pick a different less expensive costume. I stress that this does not mean I think you should get a different formal costume then get an informal Han not up to "done right" spec though!

I ask this out of curiosity - not making a point or criticising, but if formal was for fully referenced "known" costumes while informal was for not sufficiently referenced costumes originally, why are there informal versions of the formal costumes (I assume the natural evolution of rules has much to do with it)? What is the point of an informal RL Han costume? By all means go to events in whatever costume you want, but surely you want to troop it in a "done right" costume when representing the RL and your RL Han Solo costumer brothers. Concerns over quality and side costuming would be alleviated if it was formal or nothing (for referenced costumes). But that's a way bigger rules change.

To me, regardless of which costume it is, "done right" means looks as if you walked out of the movie. It doesn't mean you have to have props and costume made from the same original parts and materials, it just has to appear the way it looks in the movie. It is what the public and event sponsor is likely to expect.

Cheers.
Greg
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SoloYT1300 (Robert Kohn)
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 28, 2012 1:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

That mentality Greg was exactly the one I had when I first became LCJ... and one I no longer share.

Maybe you were not arround to notice, but there was a period where we were getting like Zero Han solos into the RL. It was absolutly dead. The standards were too darn high!

Ideally we need to compromise for membership a little. We simple have no choice or we would end up with maybe 10 Hans in the RL.

If we want harder standards for Han we should really be pushing an Elite costuming Standard, and leaving Formal alone.
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KA-513 ()
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 28, 2012 3:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Greg, done right in whose eyes? The costumer? the LCJs? The LMO? The fans? I as a costumer believe that if I properly modify a commercially available toy, then it is "done right". Were I an LCJ or the LMO, if the costume looks good as per the available reference materials, then it is "done right". As a fan, who cares? I just want to see the stormtroopers.

There is a thread over on the JRS boards that I will find once the boards are back up about a gent (I believe he's from Germany) who modified a Hasbro DL-44 and got it looking amazing and more accurate.

Also, I cannot accept the argument of "I don't think that they're accurate enough" as justification for changing the Standards. The saying "if it looks like a duck, quacks like a duck, and swims like a duck, it's a duck." comes to mind. If you(or anyone, for that matter) want to hold yourselves to a higher level of accuracy, do so. Just don't ram it down my throat. What's next, forcing everyone to have a certain kind of stitching on their costume because "that's what is screen accurate"?

Having read through this thread, though, I do feel that Bob's point about introducing an elite standard and leaving formal alone is the best thing for the group as a whole.
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 28, 2012 5:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

KA-513 wrote:
Having read through this thread, though, I do feel that Bob's point about introducing an elite standard and leaving formal alone is the best thing for the group as a whole.


Not if future decisions were based on the actual definition of formal/informal. Then it´s still the same mess to get approval as now, just with a higher level above that. Informal costumes would still need to be accompanied by a proforma formal.

Don´t lower the quality standard anymore, but make formal and informal equal for getting membership. If the costume is good enough, no matter if informal or formal - approve it.

Approval/membership should be the lowest level (lowest approvable, not lowest possible), as widespreaded over the galaxy as possible (to get also more variety than always the same 10 major costumes, thats boring) - with levels above.
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theeviltwin ()
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 28, 2012 10:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

SoloYT1300 wrote:
That mentality Greg was exactly the one I had when I first became LCJ... and one I no longer share.

Curious to understand the change in opinion for my own education. I appreciate any information and the oportunity to learn thanks. No doubt it was or good reasons. For another time though.

SoloYT1300 wrote:
Maybe you were not arround to notice, but there was a period where we were getting like Zero Han solos into the RL. It was absolutly dead. The standards were too darn high!


Yeah I don't think the standards have changed in the past two and a half years I've been on the boards. My own opinion is that that the standards are really good as hey are - the only questionable part is the blaster.

SoloYT1300 wrote:
Ideally we need to compromise for membership a little. We simple have no choice or we would end up with maybe 10 Hans in the RL.

I understand the need to compromise and that is one of the reasons why I like the current standards for everything else. The blaster just seems a bit of an inconsistent compromise. A misproportined ANH vest with odd sized pockets or loops all joined together would not be acceptable. But a blaster with the scope totally fused to the frame is?
That arguement is also a bit too close to "quantity over quality". I'm sure there is more to it, but accepting compromised standards means you have to accept a compromised product and perception from the public and event sponsors. (I don't doubt you already appreciate that but some others may not)
In the end we do live in the real world and there are other reasons where the alternatives aren't appropriate.

SoloYT1300 wrote:
If we want harder standards for Han we should really be pushing an Elite costuming Standard, and leaving Formal alone.


I'm not sure what benefits an Elite standard would give other than internal recognition. It's not like it would affect the costumes we wore at events would it? Surely there would never be an "elite" only costume requirement when formal was not good enough?

Thanks.
Greg
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theeviltwin ()
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 28, 2012 11:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

KA-513 wrote:
Greg, done right in whose eyes? The costumer? the LCJs? The LMO? The fans?


That's the million dollar question. I can only tell you what I believe the definition of done right is. I base that on my opinions and experience, the opinions of a broad range of "audiences" from young kids, super fans to actors and crew from the actual movies. And I stick to "looks like you walked out of the movie". This is not that hard to achieve. The standards are almost there, then the LCJs match our submission to it. But make no mistake, your costume will be judged by everyone who sees it every time you wear it or looks at a picture of you in costume. It is one of the realities of costuming.

KA-513 wrote:
I as a costumer believe that if I properly modify a commercially available toy, then it is "done right".


Modifying a toy to make it look right takes much more than painting it. Doesn't matter what it started out as, if modded to look right then fine.

KA-513 wrote:
As a fan, who cares? I just want to see the stormtroopers.


Fans care big time. Some event sponsors too. I was a regular fan before I started costuming (as I'm sure were most) and I cared. My non-costuming friends care too. Show most people a line up of costumes and it is always the things that are out of place that gets commented on first. A repainted Hasbro is more obvious to some and Han's blasters are iconic.

KA-513 wrote:
There is a thread over on the JRS boards that I will find once the boards are back up about a gent (I believe he's from Germany) who modified a Hasbro DL-44 and got it looking amazing and more accurate.


No doubt you could make anything look right and I don't doubt it can be done. But I was referring to toys just repainted.

KA-513 wrote:
Also, I cannot accept the argument of "I don't think that they're accurate enough" as justification for changing the Standards. The saying "if it looks like a duck, quacks like a duck, and swims like a duck, it's a duck." comes to mind.


A repainted toy looks too dissimilar to an accurate DL44. There are obvious (more to some than others) differences. A vest or gun belt with disproportionate, missaligned, missing or fused features would not be accepted. Those ducks do not look the same!

KA-513 wrote:
If you(or anyone, for that matter) want to hold yourselves to a higher level of accuracy, do so. Just don't ram it down my throat.


A tad harsh! I nor anyone else is forcing you to have a Han Solo costume. I only want the public and event sponsors we costume for to get the quality they expect and deserve.

KA-513 wrote:
What's next, forcing everyone to have a certain kind of stitching on their costume because "that's what is screen accurate"?


If it was obvious enough to make the costume look noticeably wrong without it, then yes! Screen accurate (to me) is just another way of saying what you see in the movie, and that is what people will expect to see in your costume.

KA-513 wrote:
Having read through this thread, though, I do feel that Bob's point about introducing an elite standard and leaving formal alone is the best thing for the group as a whole.


I'm not sure what value this would have for the people we costume for.

Cheers.
Greg
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GotWookiee (Matt Pfingsten)
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 29, 2012 12:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just passing a stricter set of requirements isn't going to actually raise standards. Many of you seem to point to the 501st's CRL's as a successful example to aspire to.

The problem is that the 501st's attempts to raise standards have not been as successful as you apparently believe.

On paper the 501st CRL's seem to be pretty solid. In practice though local garrisons often ignore them. Officially the Rubies Vader is not acceptable as a 501st costume, but many garrisons just don't care and bring them to events anyway. We have often rejected clone troopers that failed to pass our standards (which are the same as the 501st) but were approved by their local GML. Members of the Imperial Officer Corps have regaled me with stories about how Costume Base' Imperial Officer has gotten in by GML's who didn't give a crap.
Even in my own garrison where the respect for standards is still pretty high there is enormous pressure to allow things the Rubies Vader and Stormtrooper to pass. There is a growing sentiment standards have been slipping in the 501st in spite of the improvements in the CRL's.

This isn't the case with Chewbacca or Boba Fett. Members' builds of both costumes have been getting better for years and it's got nothing to do with costume standards. In Chewie's case, the standards haven't changed in years.
Consider that a mechanical mask is not required, yet that's all anyone has built for the last five years at least. Seriously, no one has even attempted a static mask in ages. There's nothing in the Chewie CRL about grooming, hair blending, styling, etc. Yet everyone does it. We could upgrade the standards to require both of things right now and it would have no effect because it would be requiring people to do something they are already doing voluntarily!
Same with Boba. There is now a Rubies Supreme Edition Boba yet you see no real pressure to allow that as a basis for an acceptable costume or backup Boba as with the Rubies Vader.

This has been accomplished providing information and resources for building the costume. Consider my old Chewbacca Costuming Resources page or the forthcoming revision Chewbacca Costuming Guide. Look at TheDentedHelmet for more Boba info than you can imagine.

The key is to use the carrot rather than the stick. There should be a Costuming Guide for every major character costume. You've talked about hair styles and wigs. Put a tutorial together on this. Find some good commercial wigs and explain how to style/mod them to look like a good Solo wig.
On the other hand, if you force people to buy wigs then you will see bases simply ignoring you or a lot of really crappy wigs. Some folks will do it right but most will not.
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KA-513 ()
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 29, 2012 12:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Matt, I get what you're saying about the 501st CRLs, and I am in no way saying we should ditch what we already have and go with how they do things. I'm just saying let's incorporate a couple things that do work into how we do things. The biggest issue with the 501st CRLs is the local GMLs are doing the approval: one expert for five million costume variants. We have one to two people for one style of groupings (IE: Fringe, Pilots, Troopers, etc.) on a Legion-wide basis. Anyways, that's a different kettle of fish.

Also, this is what I was referring to earlier: http://jrsforums.com/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=4987&p=50939&hilit=DL44#p50941

Replaced the scope, and some body filler for screw holes and a coat of paint, and it looks just like the real thing.

Greg, in regards to my comment about not shoving this down my throat, I do realize it was harsh, but I'm seeing this as a very probable domino effect. We ban modded toys for Han, then we ban them for Leia, then Lando, then the rest of the Face Characters. After that, we ban them for pilots and troopers. Right after that, we ban custom paint schemes on pilots' helmets because it's not "screen accurate". It's a giant snowball of a train wreck that I'd rather avoid.
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They came to fight for glory in the thousands.
Young men with their dreams.
They died before the guns in the hundreds.
A book of faded pictures, broken dreams.
Where are they now? The broken heroes.
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SoloYT1300 (Robert Kohn)
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 29, 2012 1:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

theeviltwin wrote:
SoloYT1300 wrote:
That mentality Greg was exactly the one I had when I first became LCJ... and one I no longer share.

Curious to understand the change in opinion for my own education. I appreciate any information and the oportunity to learn thanks. No doubt it was or good reasons. For another time though.


Because I have written multiple sets of standards, written multiple amendment proposals, only to get crushed with my ideas... that led to nothing but flamewars, and potential litigation. I decided to find otherways to make a better mouse trap. I joined the council... where I can make a difference of how things are run from the inside out! I am also still proposing new ideas, I just learned to pick my battles a bit more wisely.


theeviltwin wrote:

SoloYT1300 wrote:
Maybe you were not arround to notice, but there was a period where we were getting like Zero Han solos into the RL. It was absolutly dead. The standards were too darn high!


Yeah I don't think the standards have changed in the past two and a half years I've been on the boards. My own opinion is that that the standards are really good as hey are - the only questionable part is the blaster.


When I was the LCJ, I wrote the standards for the time, and there where no "Options for formal". Bloodstripes had to look right, and where not optional... it was a much harder place to become a Han. What did it get me? Nothing I only approved a handfull of Hans with those standards. I decided it was best to build tutorials and focus on things like the archive to help people get past the unknown of the costume.

Now I can say I have an archive that has more than 2,000 pictures dedicated to Han... and a tutorial section with more than 40 threads... when there was only 6 when I started the archive. We have come a long way and have helped a ton of Hans make it happen.

We did this not by raising the standards higher... but by informing. Me and Matt have worked together with other detachment members to help bridge the gap, and I think we have done rather well!




theeviltwin wrote:
SoloYT1300 wrote:
Ideally we need to compromise for membership a little. We simple have no choice or we would end up with maybe 10 Hans in the RL.

I understand the need to compromise and that is one of the reasons why I like the current standards for everything else. The blaster just seems a bit of an inconsistent compromise. A misproportined ANH vest with odd sized pockets or loops all joined together would not be acceptable. But a blaster with the scope totally fused to the frame is?
That arguement is also a bit too close to "quantity over quality". I'm sure there is more to it, but accepting compromised standards means you have to accept a compromised product and perception from the public and event sponsors. (I don't doubt you already appreciate that but some others may not)
In the end we do live in the real world and there are other reasons where the alternatives aren't appropriate.



Honestly it is really cool if you have a nice blaster, but most of the people at an event could care less if you have the mannerisms of Han. The best Han I have ever met... is and was Jimmy Siokis. I can tell you his costume was not perfect, and his blaster was nothing more than a toy. However I can promise all of you if there was a costume contest he would leave us all in the dust! My costume is much more accurate, but its not just the costume... it's the image and manerisms.

I do not think the blasters are more important than how the costume fits... and that is something if you look thru the roster has been a major issue in the past.
We finally have a solid LCJ staff for the Fringe who has been solid in making the call as to what is allowed and what is not. Far too long we let things slide... in another few years, who knows... maybe the blaster quality will also get better.


theeviltwin wrote:
SoloYT1300 wrote:
If we want harder standards for Han we should really be pushing an Elite costuming Standard, and leaving Formal alone.


I'm not sure what benefits an Elite standard would give other than internal recognition. It's not like it would affect the costumes we wore at events would it? Surely there would never be an "elite" only costume requirement when formal was not good enough?


I doubt any Elite status would ever get rewarded with anything other than a title, I doubt LFL would care TBH. The biggest benifit (outside of the member who obtains the rank) is the visual benifit of a great costume at events.

There is a difference between a good Han and a great Han. I have yet to see a Han costume that did not need something worked on... and that includes myself.


Bob Kohn
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Lichtbringer ()



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PostPosted: Wed Feb 29, 2012 1:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

KA-513 wrote:

Also, this is what I was referring to earlier: http://jrsforums.com/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=4987&p=50939&hilit=DL44#p50941

Replaced the scope, and some body filler for screw holes and a coat of paint, and it looks just like the real thing.


Youre kidding - in no way it looks like the real thing, not even slighly close.

Imho a repainted Rubies looks way better. But only for a ANH-Han - for the other Han variants it would need MAJOR surgery.
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