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ANH DL-44 question
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Is it acceptable to have a modded rubies DL-44 blaster?
Yes, for both formal, and non formal
73%
 73%  [ 11 ]
Yes, but only for non formal events
13%
 13%  [ 2 ]
No, just for halloween
6%
 6%  [ 1 ]
Other
6%
 6%  [ 1 ]
Users Voted : 15
Total Votes : 15
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Cobalt60
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 22, 2012 6:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lichtbringer wrote:
Blair wrote:
Guys ... there is more problems than "rubies blasters" ... Wink


Indeed - itīs the system itself that is the biggest problem, not neccessary the details alone.

First problem - you need a formal costume to become member. Cause a nice costume/appearance with many references is not easy to get, you lower the standards of these costumes to get the people in.

Instead - if each now formal/informal costume would be OK for approval and membership, you could have nice standards without setting them so low. Just cause there is more for the new to choose one. Depending on their skill, money and taste, easy costumes, harder costumes.
Now someone has to spend a lot of cash for a dustcatcher Solo/Jedi/Rebeltrooper - just to have it cause you need it to be approved - no matter if you store it away immediatly after the approval. THAT wasted money could better be spent for a good costume the person really wants to wear. And over the approved "member costume" there would be always the possibility of needing a "expert"-status for the real Lucas-events (something many members worldwide will never see).

Letīs say someone has 800$ and wants to be a generic Tatooine citizen/waterfarmer (or fill in another amount/planet/job), anything thatīs not in the formal list. Now he needs to spend 400 to get approval with a cheap as possible (cause he wants to keep as much as possible for the really wanted costume) made Rebeltrooper. He getīs approval, what a great day. Now he can make the costume he wants, but only with the remaining 400$. Under the line he has now 2 costumes, one that he never wanted, both not that great, instead of one really cool made one.
Please explain me how that shall keep a certain quality standard - standard maybe, but quality?

I like the allegory of "making a homerun with the first bat" iīve read here, from Rob Kohn.


Blair wrote:
1. It is not problem to set up standard for Han Solo costume which will not be able for nobody to pass ...

but question is WHY? - each one of us have own opinion what is important and what is not so important, etc. ...


Hmmm, for me he is just a guy in a white shirt, black vest, jeans with stripes - but with cool add-ons, they make the guy to Han Solo. Without them he could be from any movie. But that is also not possible for approval, or did i miss something?


Blair wrote:
2. Final authority for standards and their limits is LCJ. If somebody wanna propose change of standards, should be done via discussion with LCJ.

3. If somebody wanna propose another way, how to approve costumes, grades of costumes, etc. -> each RL member can propose it ...


As far as i know even Rob had no success with bringing in a improved system - why should someone believe he as a average member would have more luck. Thatīs why i know certain people donīt speak up - shut up, get approval - and after that: do what you want.
That way is for sure comfier - i donīt think itīs a good idea, if you want changes you have to speak up for them, but itīs each own decision to take his stand or going the easy way.

But with that mindset (both sides, letīkeep the things as they are, and itīs comfier to shut up) there would still be the british flag over the american colonies.


Blair wrote:
4. It is not polite to forcing own opinion/changes in some group where you are not even member ...


Sure, and it is cheap to call someone who names the uncomfortable truths just impolite.

Ever thought about all the persons out there who are maybe not member CAUSE of the old rules?



I agree with you (and bob). there is always a struggle between those who want "movie accurate" standards and those who want "good enough" standards, to allow easy membership. some want to lower the standards to allow more people to join ; others want to increase standards to make "movie accurate" costumes as a rule.

consider: we had a high-profile event here locally, and LFL didn't seem to trust our standards. Mary Franklin had to hand-approve EVERY costume, from photos. it didn't matter if you had "formal" costume in the RL -- this means nothing to them -- they need to see the costume before you wear it to their events.

our "formal" designation is SUPPOSED to mean: costumes which are welcome at LFL events. but LFL doesn't seem to agree with our methods: they STILL need to see every costume with their own eyes.

there is something wrong with this picture.



our Formal costumes should not be "Entry-Level" costumes.
there should be a minimum standards for being accepted (call them "entry-level" standards) -- and then we need an INCREASED standard, for "formal" costumes.

(right now the "increased standard" IS the "entry-level" standard. this is not working)
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 22, 2012 8:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lichtbringer wrote:
Indeed - itīs the system itself that is the biggest problem, not neccessary the details alone.

First problem - you need a formal costume to become member. Cause a nice costume/appearance with many references is not easy to get, you lower the standards of these costumes to get the people in.

Instead - if each now formal/informal costume would be OK for approval and membership, you could have nice standards without setting them so low. Just cause there is more for the new to choose one. Depending on their skill, money and taste, easy costumes, harder costumes.
Now someone has to spend a lot of cash for a dustcatcher Solo/Jedi/Rebeltrooper - just to have it cause you need it to be approved - no matter if you store it away immediatly after the approval. THAT wasted money could better be spent for a good costume the person really wants to wear. And over the approved "member costume" there would be always the possibility of needing a "expert"-status for the real Lucas-events (something many members worldwide will never see).
etc. ...


Just simple answer -> you can create everything what you wanna do ... nobody forcing you to be a member of RL ... Wink

Lichtbringer wrote:
Hmmm, for me he is just a guy in a white shirt, black vest, jeans with stripes - but with cool add-ons, they make the guy to Han Solo. Without them he could be from any movie. But that is also not possible for approval, or did i miss something?


For you maybe ... our opinion ...

Lichtbringer wrote:
As far as i know even Rob had no success with bringing in a improved system - why should someone believe he as a average member would have more luck. Thatīs why i know certain people donīt speak up - shut up, get approval - and after that: do what you want.
That way is for sure comfier - i donīt think itīs a good idea, if you want changes you have to speak up for them, but itīs each own decision to take his stand or going the easy way.


Ok ... so, if I will be speak up, that "denix replicas, resin, etd. should not be approved - because are not screen accurate - they are not -> they are replicas ... only original mauser is good enough" ... so, what do you think about it? -> hmm ... you will say, that I am probably crazy, etc. -> each one of us, have our limits where we seen screen accuracy ...

LCJ is authority -> I don't remember when Robert was LCJ (I was approved under LCJ Steve) -> BUT in the end LCJ proposing standards, LCJ doing changes in standards ... so ... I think -> when Robert was LCJ, he had a opportunity to make changes ...

Yes, if you wanna have a changes you should speak about it - BUT you should be able to argue about it and speak about them with person, who is able to made those changes ... but ... like this ... it is just flaming ...

Lichtbringer wrote:
Sure, and it is cheap to call someone who names the uncomfortable truths just impolite.


Maybe this is the case ... you think you are speaking truth ... but all persons with opinions have a truth ... Wink


And in the end -> mine statement:

In this time (it was not always like this ... ) ... as member of this detach ... I have no problem with making Han Solo standards HI -> if there are good arguments and it will help to screen accuracy ... for example: (no rubies guns, no kenner guns, no costumebase gunbelt, proper buckles, proper shirt color, etc.) ... BUT ... I don't like If somebody wanna do it "this flame and attack" way ... because after year ... all of this could/will appear again -> all of us could be "accused", that standards are wrong, not screen accurate, because we allowing resin replicas, resin tools, etc.

All of this is never ending process ... because after all ... we are not able to be screen accureate ... unless we use all original parts (no replicas!), original cloth, etc. ...
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Last edited by Blair (Vlastimil Sprta) on Wed Feb 22, 2012 8:32 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Nikkos Khann (Conley Nichols)
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 22, 2012 8:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ok, time to put in my two cents. Not everyone has the need or want for the 'Ultimate Maximus costume'. I do not believe the standards are low as some have suggested. It may be that your perception of the standards are low?

I personally am not rolling in the dough and never would have been approved with my Han Solo costume without my spray painted Rubies Blaster.

I also dont want to have to worry about some rambunctious kid breaking my prized replica. So for me it works. I am able to give the blaster to kids for photo ops and not have to worry.

I chose the ANH Han BECAUSE it was simpler than other costumes to do. Now that my skill levels have improved I will be pursuing some other costume Ideas, not the least of which is ESB Han. I have the Resin version of that blaster and will see how that holds up in real life trooping. I am hesitant to get the resin ANH because of the scope, afraid that it will break easier. We will have to see.

As far as comparing our costume system with the 501st, we are NOT the 501st. That is all.


And one more thing. The average costumer will NEVER EVER attend an official LFL troop. If they do, then the coordinators of that troop are responsible to have their costumers up to standards. We have to have a happy medium for the masses.
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Ky-Wan Zann ()
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 22, 2012 11:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Where I live we can't actually have the replica so we have to use modded toys Sad
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 23, 2012 9:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ky-Wan Zann wrote:
Where I live we can't actually have the replica so we have to use modded toys Sad



Thanks, that brings up another point. Cool
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 23, 2012 12:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ky-Wan Zann wrote:
Where I live we can't actually have the replica so we have to use modded toys Sad


What about resin? Is that also a problem?
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KA-513 ()
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 23, 2012 1:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Havok, resin -> replica. painted toy -> still a toy.

I know I'm not a member of the detachment, but I do want to put in my .02 credits. Blasters shouldn't be a deal-breaker even if it is a toy for a few reasons.

A: not everyone can afford to dump $500+ into a resin or metal replica.

B: some local law enforcement districts prohibit the carrying of ANYTHING that could be mistaken for a gun. I know I was given the third degree by NASA security when I trooped the Goddard flight center last April with a toy DH-17 sitting right next to my gigantic RFT helmet. I can't imagine what would have happened if I had had a replica or one built from a real Sterling SMG.

C: Kids inherently want to hold the guns at events. Some decide to throw them at their siblings. I think we can all agree that we don't want little Johnny throwing around our prized multi-hundred dollar prop and breaking it.

D: Kids don't care if you're carrying a metal or resin prop, or a painted toy. They just wanna see the life-sized action figure. Trust me on this one.

E: I agree that we do need to have high standards for LFL events. That being said, in the last three years in my base, we have had three LFL events. Two SWIC events in one year, and one the previous year. That was out of probably close to sixty-some events, I think. Some bases get more *cough*SoCal*cough*, for most, that's probably the average. Therefore, why should we tighten the thumb screws for a one in twenty chance? Also, the way my base did SWIC(I think it was the same for everyone), people who wanted to go posted with what approved costumes they had available. Our CO sent the pictures to LFL for final choosing.

F: Mandating that everyone carry resin or metal props is not conducive to a jovial atmosphere. Again, it boils down to the idea of "why should I have to shell out an additional $500 on a costume I've already spend $2000 on for something I can get off the shelf for $30 with a can of spray paint?"

G: For sake of argument, let's say that we did bump out the toy guns from the list of approvability. What happens to those of us who were approved with painted toys? Grandfathered in? Dropped to informal? Invalidated costume? If it's either of the last two, what happens to those (like me) who only have that one formal costume? Kicked out? Busted down to forum user/archived member? Can we say "Custom Mando Purge"?

To sum up, I do not agree with going "you can't have a painted toy gun as your prop" or "I'm not going to approve you with that CB gunbelt because there are more accurate ones out there. Buy one of the expensive ones." If people want to add an additional level or two of accuracy, similar to the FISD's "Expert" and "Centurion" rankings, feel free. No reason to force that on everyone else who strives for "good enough" because the kids don't care if they have the wrong tread on their boots(or a painted toy blaster).
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 23, 2012 1:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Havok69 wrote:
Ky-Wan Zann wrote:
Where I live we can't actually have the replica so we have to use modded toys Sad


What about resin? Is that also a problem?


In the UK it is illegal to sell (or make / carve/ mould / kit bash) replica mausers (including cheap airsofts, Denix and MGCs) regardless of what they are made of. There are specific exceptions exceptions to this (if the seller can establish you are a genuine airsofter or reenactor or performer) or if the replica is sufficiently "safe" coloured (colours determined by law). Membership of the RL or 501st or any base / garrison is NOT sufficient for the exemption.
That's a bit of a simplification but my three points are:
(in thevUK) It doesn't matter if it is made out of plastic, resin, metal or marshmallow (seriously!), it is effectively illegal for someone to sell (through a store or privately) a replica Mauser. That includes international orders.
It is illegal to build your own replica Mauser or paint a "safe" coloured one a realistic colour.
It is so difficult to sell one legally that stores don't bother trying and it is almost impossible to get Denix replicas in the UK.
Bizarrely thevrestrictions for buying replica mausers do not apply to replica DL44s, hence you can buy partly formed kits and full replicas (you couldn't be sold a replica Mauser with conversion kit parts though - it has to be sufficiently and permanently removed from its original Mauser shape).
Same goes for all SW blasters based on real world guns.
This only applies to acquiring props, not what is legal / responsible to do with them in public / on troops / at events though.

Main points are that different countries have different laws just for trying to source them, some much more restrictive than others and they don't necessarily make sense. What it is made from doesn't necessarily matter when legally acquiring them. Legally acquiring them is only the tip of the iceberg, where and what you can do responsibly (and legally) for costuming with them is even more important.

Cheers.
Greg

P.S. I'll be putting my opinions in too soon but brace yourselves, I don't do short posts in topics as important as these!
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 23, 2012 2:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

So to use the how far do we go argument that has been used against improving the standards...

Some countries somewhere in the world prohibit this or that, so I suggest we approve formal membership for all version of Hans with no gunbelt or blaster at all.

There - safe worldwide, and obtainable.

Mr. Green
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 23, 2012 3:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Havok, that's why we have this clause/loophole in almost ALL Standards for characters that have blasters/"firearms"(clone troopers are the one exception, for some weird reason)

Quote:
unless local laws prohibit or strongly discourage carrying anything that looks like a firearm


To my knowledge, it is the responsibility of the costumer/member to research, understand, and comply with local regulations.

As far as my "how far" argument, I'm not saying don't improve the Standards at all. I'm saying, if this is done, what happens to the members approved with painted toy blasters? If you read back, I'm fine with having multiple levels of standards after the baseline formal, a la the FISD over on the 501st. They have three levels, the baseline CRL, "Expert Infantry" (higher levels of accuracy, no toy blasters), and "Centurion"(highest level of accuracy, no toy blasters, no stunt helmets, restrictions on which suppliers of armour), and they leave it to the individual to decide which level they want to shoot for. Something like that could work here. I highly doubt that a blanket ban on painted toy blasters would work, though.
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SoloYT1300 (Robert Kohn)
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 23, 2012 4:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Look...

If your in an area in the world that does not allow the real looking blaster or even no blaster at all... you can still become formal without it. The standards are made to account for parts of the world that do not allow real looking blasters. The LCJ's judge each costume as individual costumes for a reason... otherwise there would be far fewer Hans than there are right now.

The standards have gone up and down over the last few years... mostly up! Thats a good thing, and we should all as a group should be not only be focused but driven to better costumes. I find far to often that when a member gets an approved costume(not just Hans) they tend to stop wotking on it. That is key mistake number one! If you look at our charter it states that would should be driven to improve what we have.:

Our Vision
The vision of The Rebel Legion is to promote a sense of camaraderie among all its members, continue to improve the quality of Star Wars costumes for all its members to that of movie grade, and to promote goodwill worldwide through works of charity and volunteerism.

That simply means we must continue forward to find ways to make not only our costumes better, but the guys and gals next to us better. This is done thru standards.

Here is the rub:
Right now with the standards as they are as difficult as any costume in the RL minus the blasters (another issue altogether). To increase the standards will only result in less Hans... and more frustration. I learned along time ago that in order to resolve the issue that a change would need to be made in the format of the costiming judging if the quality of the standards were ever to be changed.

Making the entry level costume harder isnt the answer. Making the entry level costume should be for membership only... formal should be reserved more... movie accurate costumes only. If a costume is missing an item yet still qualifies for formal... is that movie accurate?... or just good enough to be formal.

So you see... the problem is not the standards, its the way the standards have been set up. To redo that set up really is the only way you will ever move the formal standards to true movie accurate costumes... as intended by the wording in our Vision or the charter.

However... good luck getting the format to change... I had tried and failed more than once...lol

PS. I was an LCJ for a bit... just not a very good one... I caused more trouble than I was worth.

Wink

my 2 cents...


Bob
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 23, 2012 5:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The three level approval is really the way to go. It gets someone in with minimal effort and gives them an incentive to improve.

One thing that is mentioned time and again is the trooping that justifies the toy blaster. I get it - you don't' want some kid breaking your prized possession. However, trooping and getting approved are two different things.

I'm also into TOS Star Trek (gasp!) I've got some nice phasers that will never leave my house. When I wear my Kirk outfit, I have a Diamond Select phaser that was cheap, however is highly accurate for the toy it is. so I do understand the value of the toy blasters. However, we're talking about the approval process, not trooping...
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 23, 2012 5:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Before i will comment some posts directly, i want to make clear that iīm not against the use of each toy blaster.

At an event with children that want to hold a blaster, itīs great - it lights, and it makes sound - and itīs not expensive if they drop it. Itīs SAFE.

I still have and love my first Kenner Blaster, bought after ANH - i improved it myself as a kid with some wires and a tiny lightbulb (maybe from a torchlight or a bicyclelamp, found the stuff in Dads garage).

But it looks so damn wrong Laughing ..... the Rubies looks much better.


Another story is posing in the evening, with adult public, lets say a cinema...... with something like a Kenner the costumer looks immediatly like a clown. I had friends driving to a bigger town to watch SW, when they came back they talked funny about the costumed guys, beeing more or less average SW-Fans they noticed immediatly what was a pure fun costume for that evening (bathrobe jedis), what was quality build, and what was cheap looking - and they were not educated on that stuff. For such events a higher standard should be used, to avoid beeing laughed out.

Here in Germany you are allowed to own demilled deco guns and replicas - in your house. And you are fully responsible if someone gets access to them and runs around threatening people - as you are not allowed to carry them free in public, as they are "lookalike weapons" that could be taken for a real one. If i take my blasters to a exhibition or something, i "would" have to transport them in a closed container, just like real ones.
But the modified SW blaster are not really looking like real guns anymore, and at a event and in costume i donīt think you will ever get any problems with them. A single smuggler running through the mall and aiming the people might be another story. Laughing


So iīm not blind to possible problems - i just donīt think itīs always the easiest way that should be choosen.

Seeing at a lot of profiles, i notice many people seem to collecting as much costumes as possible. If these people would invest the same amount of time and money on half the number of costumes, each of them could make a big step to another level. Itīs wrong to assume the average people donīt reckognize such SW-stuff - they may not know what it is or should be, but they are fully aware when something is done the fast and easy way.
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 23, 2012 5:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Blair wrote:
Just simple answer -> you can create everything what you wanna do ... nobody forcing you to be a member of RL ... Wink


Indeed, but iīm a member of this forum - and nonetheless i spend time on a discussion, just cause i think it would bring a benefit to the group.


Blair wrote:
For you maybe ... our opinion ...


Aye, as good as your opinion. Maybe from a not that biased point of viev, as iīm looking from the outside.


Blair wrote:
Ok ... so, if I will be speak up, that "denix replicas, resin, etd. should not be approved - because are not screen accurate - they are not -> they are replicas ... only original mauser is good enough" ... so, what do you think about it? -> hmm ... you will say, that I am probably crazy, etc. -> each one of us, have our limits where we seen screen accuracy ...


Pure exaggeration - when there are no real arguments itīs a often used way - but it doesnīt work.

Why not resin, as long as it is molded from a good replica? The material is one thing, metal is sure nicer, but a good resinbuild looks not that different.

"I" donīt use Denix, i use MGCs (the same as most Solo blasters were build on), my E-11 is a real deac, my Leia DDC has a real deac Margolin waiting.......
But .... the denix is not that bad, just a few steps away and itīs hard for many people to see the difference. Same is possible with resin. But not with a Kenner, due to itīs wrong shape.


Blair wrote:

LCJ is authority -> I don't remember when Robert was LCJ (I was approved under LCJ Steve) -> BUT in the end LCJ proposing standards, LCJ doing changes in standards ... so ... I think -> when Robert was LCJ, he had a opportunity to make changes ...


That was pointed to your "each member can ....."


Blair wrote:
Yes, if you wanna have a changes you should speak about it - BUT you should be able to argue about it and speak about them with person, who is able to made those changes ... but ... like this ... it is just flaming ...


Nonsens. For flaming i would chime in, put out some phrases, and look whats happening. For sure i wouldnīt argue with long posts.



Blair wrote:
Maybe this is the case ... you think you are speaking truth ... but all persons with opinions have a truth ... Wink


Aye, and each person sees his truth from his own point of view.


Blair wrote:
All of this is never ending process ... because after all ... we are not able to be screen accureate ... unless we use all original parts (no replicas!), original cloth, etc. ...


Thatīs not correct. Next to noone of us has ever had the real movie used parts in his hand, but we all can see them. On screen and on reference pics. So itīs the look that should be copied first.

A easy way ist to obtain the real parts - or good replicas, be it resin or metal. Itīs still a movie, so things are seen, not felt. First it should look right in shape and color, and after that i may feel right, too - but the accurate look is the most important thing.
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 23, 2012 6:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

KA-513 wrote:
Havok, resin -> replica. painted toy -> still a toy.


Not really.


KA-513 wrote:
A: not everyone can afford to dump $500+ into a resin or metal replica.

B: some local law enforcement districts prohibit the carrying of ANYTHING that could be mistaken for a gun. I know I was given the third degree by NASA security when I trooped the Goddard flight center last April with a toy DH-17 sitting right next to my gigantic RFT helmet. I can't imagine what would have happened if I had had a replica or one built from a real Sterling SMG.


Thatīs why iīm not against the use of toy-blasters at all - the right blaster for the right event.


KA-513 wrote:
C: Kids inherently want to hold the guns at events. Some decide to throw them at their siblings. I think we can all agree that we don't want little Johnny throwing around our prized multi-hundred dollar prop and breaking it.


Oh yeah, i know what you mean. Wink


KA-513 wrote:
D: Kids don't care if you're carrying a metal or resin prop, or a painted toy. They just wanna see the life-sized action figure. Trust me on this one.


NO WAY. Mr. Green

At an exhibition i had several Solo blaster with me, from toy to "donīt touch this or the emperor will fry your brain with blue lightnings" - the kids really liked the vintage Kenner with sound and (done by me as a child) light. But when i allowed them to hold and swirl some Denix builds, you should have seen their eyes - they went just crazy and were close wet their pants from joy - i would never have thought that. I was talking with the dads how the builds were done, and the kids could be heard when leaving my table, explaining their dad that they "held a real Blaster, just as Han Solo did". Cool


KA-513 wrote:
F: Mandating that everyone carry resin or metal props is not conducive to a jovial atmosphere. Again, it boils down to the idea of "why should I have to shell out an additional $500 on a costume I've already spend $2000 on for something I can get off the shelf for $30 with a can of spray paint?"


Slippery when wet - with the same argument someone can choose to use a Halloween or costumebase costume. "Why ...... if i ......?" - cause it looks better, more screenlike.


KA-513 wrote:
G: For sake of argument, let's say that we did bump out the toy guns from the list of approvability. What happens to those of us who were approved with painted toys? Grandfathered in? Dropped to informal? Invalidated costume? If it's either of the last two, what happens to those (like me) who only have that one formal costume? Kicked out? Busted down to forum user/archived member? Can we say "Custom Mando Purge"?


Havnīt costume be rejudged before? What happens if someone was approved with the first set of standards the RL had, and new improved standards were made? I really donīt know.
_________________
Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side.

Have a nice day,
Michael
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