Forum and Costume Controls

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Rose Tico costume standard discussion
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longshot7014 (William Holmes)
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 16, 2018 10:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Blair,

I agree completely. Thank you for addressing this issue!


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Kylo Ren (Dawn Bright)
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 16, 2018 10:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ladysolo14 wrote:


By submitting a costume which is not respectful to a specific race, it violates the above statement in the charter. The costume will be denied and the member or enlistee will be informed as such. If this does become an issue and we see an influx of people submitting costumes that are disrespectful to other races we can then reassess our current policies. However, to date we have not had an issue with this.


Hello do have an example of this ever occurring? In my now 5 years of judging i have yet to see this ever happen. I have never witnessed a person any facing anything in the legion... I do not grasp why we are making something out of a concern that has never happened.

Also I feel if we add it to this one it needs to be added to every single standard.. from Rey to Lando to Rose.
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Last edited by Kylo Ren (Dawn Bright) on Sat Mar 17, 2018 3:23 pm; edited 1 time in total
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jthatcher (Jim Thatcher)
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 17, 2018 12:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kylo Ren wrote:
Also yes if we add it to this one it needs to be added to every single standard.. from Rey to Lando to Rose.


Agreement here. Not a road that is necessary to go down.
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Kix (Bowie)
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 17, 2018 4:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I really feel like we're just bypassing right past what two women of color said about concerns. It feels extra like that when you go the extra mile to infer it's wrong to ask people not to try to do race-bending makeup for other costumes, either.

But their chief complaint is that it ISN'T as common sense as blackface. The chief complaint is that white people do 'asianish' makeup techniques for this stuff in anime costuming especially all the time. But I can tell you, it did not take a lot of effort to find the number of people getting confronted with the very idea of yellowface in costuming and acting absolutely stunned it's racist; after-all, they're just trying to make their eyes look right for the costume.

That said, if it's unilaterally unacceptable to add to costumes some disclaimer of "do not use makeup to appear as a race you are not" and it is unilaterally unacceptable to add that only to the costumes of those most commonly the victim of accidental racist caricatures (asians), then perhaps you're right, and we should look to the rules of conduct for guidance you listed here:

Quote:

Legion members are expected to be courteous and respectful towards their fellow members, the greater Star Wars community, and the general public. Legion members are also expected to show respect for all users/visitors to the website, respect all opinions of users/visitors to the website, and comply with policies and procedures


The only direct guidance listed here where it could EVER conceivably be affixed to costuming is ... if the costumer, and the interpreter of this phrasing, took it that doing yellowface is discourteous and disrespectful to specific other members of the Legion. That's, honestly, way too vague if this is the ONLY thing you have here to caution people away from, frankly, a fairly commonly innocently-intended mistake. It is not as common of sense as possible.

If the situation calls for an adjustment to some general terms and conditions we want to apply to all members, maybe actually add something way more direct about not using makeup or prosthetics to appear as another race, especially a minority race.

I think this is a harmless addition to this application, and only as big a deal as you want to make it be that we can't affix it (since we affix other 'can't dos' to applications).
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Kix (Bowie)
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 17, 2018 4:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Also: Dawn, Jim, Blair, William, stepping past this concern out of hand really should at least meet the metric of *something* before being so soundly rejected.

You all are the ones opposed in this thread, and somewhat congratulatory on one another's sound decision making. However, I must address that you all appear to be a very white bloc of decision makers. I do not say that to infer that white folk can't make good, sound, unbiased judgments, but to ask you if this is as well-thought through and unbiased as you all genuinely believe, or if there is any chance whatsoever you are seeing this through your perspective of reality and that this perspective might not have truly considered all avenues available before a decision was made.

Horsegir48 and and Foreversong are telling you that this is a very common misunderstanding by white costumers, and they want it addressed, and are women of color.

And to just wave it off as a non-issue seems honestly really dismissive.
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Bouri-Plwel (Rick Bouwhuis)
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 17, 2018 5:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Skin color has nothing to do wit ANY decision that is made for this legion.....everyone will refrain from making any further race accusations towards any persons or groups. In the end the LMO is the final authority and decision on all things membership and costume standard related. Let's keep this conversation civil and productive. Please review the charter for code of conduct and appropriate forum use. If it happens again....the thread will be locked and violators held accountable.....this is your warning
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ladysolo14 ()
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 17, 2018 7:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I would like to re-frame this discussion and restart from a different perspective. I would like to start with addressing what my intentions are with this post. My intentions as the LMO is to ensure that ALL members feel supported and listened to equally.

I have with the best of my ability attempted to understand the concerns raised by several members. I've spent time researching and talking to people who have better insight on topics such as this.

I can understand and appreciate that this topic may be disrespectful and or offensive to some. This is something that we, as Legion Command, and WE as the Legion as a whole never want a member to experience. We would like to support all members equally in all aspects of what we love to do, which is costuming.

This concern is bigger than just the Rose standard and I took that into consideration when evaluating possible solutions to address the concerns raised. We need to make sure that everyone is respectful to others in the way in which they choose to costume. This respect is also represented in the way in which someone portrays a character of a different race and gender.

This is why if someone submits a costume that is deemed disrespectful to race, gender, or religion it will be denied and the person will be informed that they are in violation of the charter's Code of Conduct. If for some reason we see an influx of costumes being submitted that are not respectful to race, gender, or religion Legion Command will determine the best way to inform membership that these types of actions are not tolerated.

Myself and Legion Command do our very best to understand the concerns, needs and wants of membership. We never want members to feel like we are not listening and if you ever feel like that is happening please contact us and let us know why you are feeling that way. We want everyone to feel they can safely enjoy costuming within the Rebel Legion community. Please don't hesitate to contact me if you have any additional concerns.
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ladysolo14 ()
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 17, 2018 2:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

One additional thing to add as I didn't clearly address this in my previous post. I know the topic of making sure people are being respectful to others when they are costuming is really important. We all want the Legion to be the best it can be where people feel safe. This topic is much much bigger than just the Rose standard and standards in general.

If you are really passionate about this topic then I encourage you to start a discussion and brainstorm ideas to help educate others about how to be respectful when we costume and what is not tolerated. If you find an idea that you think is awesome then present it to Legion Command and we will see how to get it implemented.
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horsegir48 ()
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 17, 2018 10:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ladysolo14 wrote:
One additional thing to add as I didn't clearly address this in my previous post. I know the topic of making sure people are being respectful to others when they are costuming is really important. We all want the Legion to be the best it can be where people feel safe. This topic is much much bigger than just the Rose standard and standards in general.

If you are really passionate about this topic then I encourage you to start a discussion and brainstorm ideas to help educate others about how to be respectful when we costume and what is not tolerated. If you find an idea that you think is awesome then present it to Legion Command and we will see how to get it implemented.


I did that and look how that turned out. I think this is an indicator of why the legion is mostly white.
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tk4679 ()
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 18, 2018 1:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just to add my two cents. To say this hasn't been an issue in the past, so why are we talking about it, ignores the truth that until the new movies, Star Wars was a White Universe.

The the, long overdue, addition of different races in the Star Wars universe, it is not surprising this is coming up now.

My recommendation to the Rebel Legion is to add under the code of conduct that any individual using make-up to appear as another race is strictly forbidden. That way all the concern about adding to the Rose standards is not an issue if it is added to the Code of Conduct.

Education is great and without reinforcement, racism (conscious or unconscious) will continue.

As the Star Wars universe continues to be more multi-culteral, so should the legion.

What is the process to update the Code of Conduct to include this clause?
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Kix (Bowie)
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 18, 2018 5:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bouri-Plwel wrote:
everyone will refrain from making any further race accusations towards any persons or groups. In the end the LMO is the final authority and decision on all things membership and costume standard related. Let's keep this conversation civil and productive. Please review the charter for code of conduct and appropriate forum use. If it happens again....the thread will be locked and violators held accountable.....this is your warning


I didn't make an accusation on race. I asked if you were sure, absolutely sure, that one's natural biases did not make one jump to a decision/a concurring without adequate consideration.

I assume your threat of locking this and reprimanding me (or, even, giving me a formal warning, as you now have) is based on the below statement, which I ask you to please review and reconsider that I never made a racial accusation, but rather asked you to ensure that your declarative judgments were not, themselves, based on a perceptive bias:
Kix wrote:
I do not say that to infer that white folk can't make good, sound, unbiased judgments, but to ask you if this is as well-thought through and unbiased as you all genuinely believe, or if there is any chance whatsoever you are seeing this through your perspective of reality and that this perspective might not have truly considered all avenues available before a decision was made.

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navarre1095 (CHARLES GRAY)
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 18, 2018 3:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

horsegir48 wrote:
ladysolo14 wrote:
One additional thing to add as I didn't clearly address this in my previous post. I know the topic of making sure people are being respectful to others when they are costuming is really important. We all want the Legion to be the best it can be where people feel safe. This topic is much much bigger than just the Rose standard and standards in general.

If you are really passionate about this topic then I encourage you to start a discussion and brainstorm ideas to help educate others about how to be respectful when we costume and what is not tolerated. If you find an idea that you think is awesome then present it to Legion Command and we will see how to get it implemented.


I did that and look how that turned out. I think this is an indicator of why the legion is mostly white.


I am absolutely flabbergasted that we are even having this discussion

I'm sorry that you think so poorly of us.

At this point there is no reason to continue this discussion.
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